to be really concerned about how much DS LIES?

[Insignificant0ther]

I have a 9 year old son. We have a stable and good home life - we live with my partner - who he adores - in my large lovely house. We both work, but split the school runs between us (80% me, 20% DP) so we spend a lot of time with him. He has friends round regularly, and we do nice things together on the weekends. He has a good relationship with his dad, who he stays with every other weekend. We have never fallen out or badmouthed each other in front of him - we are very good friends, the relationship just didn't work out.

DS is a consistent, absolutely infuriating liar. I don't know why or when it started - there's been no obvious trigger as far as I can tell. I'm a pretty chilled mum - but lies really get my goat and there are dozens a day and I just don't know what to do any more.

For example today so far:

'I finished my yoghurt. I put the rubbish in the bin.'
'What flavour was it?'
(silence)
'Hey, what flavour did you have?'
(silence and a whinge)
'Did you have a yoghurt?'
'NO! I DIDN'T! THERE!'
'Okay. Well why did you lie about it?'
(aggressive noise and storms off)

---

Me: 'Did you put your washing away?'
Him: 'Yes'
Me: 'You hung your tshirts up and put your uniform away neatly?'
Him: 'YES.'
Me: 'So should I check?'
Him: 'Ugh god NO I SAID I DID IT!'
I just found it all screwed up and stuffed in his pillowcase.

-

Him: I ate all my lunch.
Me: All of it?
Him: Yes.
Me: Go get your lunchbox then so we can clean it out ready for tomorrow.
Him: (starts to whine)
Me: 'Ooh that doesn't sound good, what did you leave?'
Him: 'Nothing'
Me: 'I'm not cross, just want to know if you'll be hungry when we get home or not. And I packed stuff I know you'll like, so if I've given you too much it would be useful to know that for the future.'
Him: 'I don't remember'
Me: (silence)
He goes to get his lunchbox and there are his sandwiches there. I ask him - without making a big deal of it - to sit at the table while I prep dinner and eat his sandwiches because he just said he was hungry. He whinges and says he hates ham and cucumber (its his fave). I turn my back for two seconds and he has STUFFED THEM IN THE CUTLERY DRAWER, hopped down and said barefaced grinning that he's eaten his sandwiches!!!

These are really trivial examples, he also tells much bigger lies as well. He lies several times a day about brushing his teeth, to which I now have to stand and brush mine with him twice a day to make sure he does them. He lies about having a shower, literally pats some water on his head and tantrums when I call him out on it. He lies about losing things - has taken expensive toys to school and lost them then lied about it, and I've had a call from his teacher saying she has them. He lies about being sick, pretends he's thrown up in his bed and then when I look, obviously there's nothing there. He lies about being 'the best' in his class at running/reading/anything, and then when I get the year end reports its all obviously bollocks. Concerningly, when I hold his hand to cross the road or similar, he has taken to shrieking 'YOU'RE HURTING ME GET OFF ME!' (It should go without saying that I absolutely am not, and would not, I have never laid a finger on him or any other child for that matter, he just knows that when he screeches that hateful phrase I will drop his hand like a hot cake and he gets his own way.)

He lies to my mum and his dad saying I don't feed him or he hasnt had dinner - rather than just say he's still hungry - that's happened a few times and I've been bawled out about it when I've bloody fed him! It got to a point where I was texting his dad photos of his dinner just in case he lied about it.

There are so many examples but typically my mind has gone pretty blank here, but you get the idea.

I know what some of you will be thinking, so I'll attempt to alleviate some of it here.

1. He gets a LOT of attention. As mentioned before, I deliberately jigged my working hours so I can do the school runs, and when we get home from school we hang out, drawing, making things, watching telly, going for walks, playing in the garden, he gets more one on one time than any other kid I know with a working parent.

1. I don't make a big deal out of the lies. I used to, but now I just brush them off with a casual 'well that was a lie' or depending what it is, give him the opportunity to change his story/tell the truth - which he sometimes does, sometimes adamantly sticks to the bullshit.

1. I know all kids lie, but every other sentence he says is untrue and it is literally exhausting me to have to permanently manage my irritation, call it out, try to get to the bottom of it all all the time. It's so tiring and confusing.

1. I'm a really black and white honest person. I've never role modelled lies or keeping secrets to him - I'm totally upfront about the fact that we don't keep secrets and we don't tell untruths, and I always have been.

1. I have taken him to a therapist in the past and he lied to her so much she genuinely didn't know how to help him.

I've tried taking his electronics away for a day per lie, but it got to 2 weeks in one day alone, which is just futile. I've tried giving him household chores to do as penance (small things, but he doesn't enjoy them, so it's something...)

I'm kind of at the end of my tether. It's embarrassing for a start, but also just exhausting. And really demoralising as a parent that he disrespects me so much that he lies to me every hour of the day about every tiny trivial thing.

What on earth can I do that I haven't tried already, please?

Is it possible that he's telling you what he thinks you want to hear rather than lying maliciously? Lots of adults on here agree to stuff even though they'd rather not etc

Have you thought about ignoring the more obvious lies? "My teacher killed a spider bigger than my hand today" could be countered with "I killed one bigger than a cat 😂" I suppose that exaggeration is technically lying but it's a harmless one and he won't be the only child who goes home and talks about wishful thinking (say scoring goals in football) which is technically untrue but harmless.

'fewer questions, more instructions' sounds like a good idea. Thankyou. He hates instructions, reacts really defiantly to the most basic of things, but I'll hold firm. Thanks.

I know it's not the same situation, but I have one very stubborn child who would not react well to instructions when younger, eg Put your shoes on, but somehow would be okay with 'It's time to get your shoes on'. Somehow one is an instruction, the other is factual information, but the intent is the same. It was very wearing having to remember to adjust my phrasing each time, but it has generally been effective.

You sound at the end of your rope, it must be very difficult.
I agree with further assessment, also read up on pathological demand avoidance
www.autismwestmidlands.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/PDA-1.pdf

My 8 year old DD does this too but I also did it as a child, my DM used to call me Jackanory. I grew out of it and suspect she will too, it was just an overactive imagination in my case and think it is with DD too.

I told everyone my Dad was Alan Shearer in primary school as an example . No idea why I used to do it.

How exhausting. He clearly has issues with impulsivity and self control and may need to be treated as younger in some ways.

One thing I would try would be to go back to supervising showers, teeth, putting clothes away as he is clearly not ready to do those things alone. Hard work for you and he won’t like it but he needs to earn your trust. Less chat and more short, clear instructions from you.

Some things I would try to ignore others less so.

However, since he’s been comprehensively assessed and so many people have tried and failed to address this it’s probably beyond the scope of Mumsnet to really help but you have my utmost sympathy.

Maybe he should run for president!

Having just gone through CAMHS with my own son for ASD and having relatives with other spectrum diagnoses, I'm quite confident this is a very typical example of PDA (pathological demand avoidance). The hiding things is very common, in order to get a thrill out of hoodwinking. The lying can be for a number of reasons, from making people more interested in them to manipulation to again successfully pulling the wool over people's eyes. The avoidance of basic self care and telling lies about food can be correlated to the extreme need to avoid conforming to routine and expectations and stems from anxiety and a need to have power over things. I sympathise as it's an extremely difficult place to be in not knowing reasoning and how to correct behaviours but I encourage you to research and query PDA

@rachelfrost that's an interesting point. Do you have any links to back that up as I would be interested in reading them. My 12 yo dd has been a daily liar since her dad left. He has not reacted well to her ever telling him the truth about her feelings about him. I wonder if that's relevant. He's a pathological liar himself and they both tell such ridiculous lies.
Op it's infuriating and you have my sympathies. Just because your split was acrimonious doesn't mean it hasn't affected him

who doesn't ask their child questions? It's not done in an overbearing way - my tone is light and jolly

It may not seem overbearing to you but are all your questions as factual, naggy and nitpicky as the examples? What flavour yoghurt Did he eat all his lunch? Is the only conversation you can make this terribly detailed factual stuff?

I hope I am not stereotyping but people with ASCs are more likely to ask very factual questions which can come across to NT people like interrogation. A lot of NT children's communication is speculation, feelings, ideas, preferences that change from day to day, random whims, wishful thinking and flights of fancy.

Lying about doing well at school is a sign of poor self image and a desperate desire to please you and avoid your disappointment and anger. However unreasonably, he is afraid of how you respond when he tells the truth. You say yourself that you are extremely honest . That gives you such a black and white view of truth, this isn't "lies and deceit" this is a whole mixed bag of very different things. Your DS is trying to please you, he is avoiding inappropriate demands, there is storytelling, fantasy, fibs and covering up.

You are a lovely caring person but you overdo it. You insist on holding his hand when crossing the road while he is probably dying inside of social shame and embarrassment - and frustration too because he is too old and needs to walk independently. I can absolutely see why he lies about food and eating, if you are take what he says and decide he is hungry and insist that he eats his leftover lunch before dinner. His favourite sandwich for lunch may not be anything he wants after school. He may have told you he'd finished his lunch in the vague hope of avoiding all that.

Poor kid, he and you do not seem to understand each other at all.

So have you considered family therapy? This is not just a him-problem. It's him-and-you together problem. You have a massive communication barrier between the two of you. So family therapy, ideally with someone who will understand your own ASC, to manage your expectations of him and your communication with each other.

@DtPeabodysLoosePants

Hi, I got it from a book I’m reading called ‘the a-z of therapeutic parenting, strategies and solutions’ by Sarah Naish. It’s only got a four page section on lying so probably not worth you finding the book just for that. Does offer practical advice: make it about facts not emotions, state the truth with certainly (you can say you’ll apologise later if it turns out you’re wrong), narrate the situation to them kindly ‘I can see you don’t want to tell me where your coat is...’. There’s a big list of reasons why it might happen too long to summarise, I’d take a photo and post it but I’m not sure about copyright. If you pm me your email address I’ll send a picture of the pages. If you’re not comfortable with that then Google will have plenty to say about it too.

This is interesting, my DD lied from the day she could talk, she's make up fabulous stories and nothing was ever her fault. When she was 3 it was cute and funny. Now she's 16 she still does it but the difference is she developed MH issues - so when I say developed I have often wondered if the lying is part of it and if that was red flag that i didn't spot when she was younger. The type of lies you are talking about sound familiar (sandwich in drawer etc).

Can you afford to see a more experienced therapist, like a child psychotherapist? The assessments for ADHD etc have a long waiting list in some areas, maybe 2 years, and your GP maybe reluctant to refer just based on lying.

OP- is anxiety a feature of your ASC? The many questions and micromanaging him (hand to cross the road) etc makes me think that. While he may not know the word anxiety, perhaps you son feels pressure to answer "correctly" and not disappoint?

With regards to worries about the lunchbox- you need to relax. If it's too much there will be leftovers and if there's too little then it will be all eaten. The lunchbox interaction should be
Him- "I ate all my lunch"
You- "OK. Can I have your lunchbox so I can put it in the dishwasher before tomorrow?"
(You open lunchbox and there's sandwiches in them)
If you're still hungry you could eat the sandwiches?
(He decides that he doesn't want them so runs off)

Don't you remember being a kid and being hungry for food as long as what's on offer is what you fancy too? Maybe he was thirsty rather than hungry? Maybe he changed his mind and playing was more appealing?

The "Me: 'I'm not cross, just want to know if you'll be hungry when we get home or not. And I packed stuff I know you'll like, so if I've given you too much it would be useful to know that for the future.'" is very intense for an after school conversation. He's human so could have been hungry at lunch and after school, neither time or just at one time. (My kids are firmly in the must eat after school regardless of what they are at lunch camp)

My child is 8 and also lies. We don't know why and he says he doesn't know why he does either.
My husband who is nearly 40 also tells white lies. I always call him out on it and it makes him look stupid yet he will do it again.

I think it's obvious how much you care and want to do the right thing. Irrespective of his lying I think due to your past you might be a bit full on. He's coming up to his teenage years soon and you'll drive each other mad at this rate.
Be loving, back of from giving him opportunities to lie. Watch other parents and see what you like about their parenting.
I'd pay privately though, his lying does seem extreme.
Good luck.

My daughter once told the school social worker that she was traumatised by the death of her best friend, who apparently died in her arms.
And then there was the one where she said her brother had whacked her over the head with a laptop.
There was no truth in the first story, and only a small grain of it in the second (he snatched the laptop off her and accidentally caught the side of her head with it.)
Bad manners but not the sort of abuse he was imagining.
Kids lie. Kids with good imaginations lie more.
Just keep calling him on it
He'll get over it

I have a feeling I was a habitually lying child. I definitely remember coming up with some porkies, and equally getting frustrated when telling the truth that nobody believed me or acted on it - going by my adult experience of my family I think the latter caused the former.

I'm not sure if this is helpful - but I hated lying. I felt guilty immediately. As an equally not-smart child, I wouldn't have guessed that your follow-up questions were a chance to come clean - it was more opportunities to continue the story I was telling (ok, I was definitely craving attention).

I could be way off the mark, but I think your questions are turning the very minor lies into more elaborate ones which exasperates the issues for both of you.

Like PPs have said, I'd minimise opportunities for story-telling/lies by asking about things that have already happened. If it's trivial, and the answer could be a lie, don't ask. When you interact, focus on conversations about the future (like "what shall we do after your homework is finished?") or abstract whimsiness (e.g. "what would you do with £10,000?")

I disagree with the post above implying that lying is actually a good thing as it shows a good imagination! That is utter nonsense. It is a terrible thing and should be treated as such.

'He gets very angry and upset when he can't find clothes or they're screwed up insisting SOMEONE ELSE RUINED THEM.'

Op, I would hit the roof if my 9 year old scrumpled up clothes that I had laundered for them, and then blamed it on someone else. I would literally hit the roof. They actually wouldn't dare. If they did behave this way, they can get as angry and upset as they liked, I would neither be getting involved, nor relaundering anything. They would be doing their own laundry from there on in, for a start. I wouldn't tolerate that whatsoever, and I wouldn't say I was strict at all.

Hes an only child and maybe the constant questions are just too much. As an only child all the attention is on him and that can be suffocating. I mean at 9, whether he ate his lunch in school hardly matters unless hes an eating disorder. Presumably he'll eat his dinner. The holding hand thing, I know why you do it, but humiliating for him if his friends see... I'd be working on him getting more independent and I think I'd nearly stop trying to catch him out all the time. If he lies and u know it's a lie, tell him so and it's not acceptable or whatever. But this asking him continuous questions, to prove it's a lie, is non productive I'd think, just stressing both of u out .

Bloody hell arethereanyleftatall you sound a bundle of laughs!

Lol, I am as it happens, it's my best characteristic!

This is what I'd do. I don't know if you think it'd work with your DS? But he's playing divide and conquer between adults in his life.
Short family meeting, with your mum dad, his dad, you and your DP, all around the table with DS. Gently that they all know when he isn't being truthful and it makes them/you all sad that they/you can't believe what he says. That he's usually a lovely boy but people won't believe him even when he IS telling the truth if he continues saying things that aren't true sometimes.

Then all get up to go leaving him with 'we all love you and want you to think about it because we want to be able to believe you'.

Then I'd talk teacher.
I'm with you OP, lying so much is not ok and I think you've been doing everything you can.