to be really concerned about how much DS LIES?

[Insignificant0ther]

I have a 9 year old son. We have a stable and good home life - we live with my partner - who he adores - in my large lovely house. We both work, but split the school runs between us (80% me, 20% DP) so we spend a lot of time with him. He has friends round regularly, and we do nice things together on the weekends. He has a good relationship with his dad, who he stays with every other weekend. We have never fallen out or badmouthed each other in front of him - we are very good friends, the relationship just didn't work out.

DS is a consistent, absolutely infuriating liar. I don't know why or when it started - there's been no obvious trigger as far as I can tell. I'm a pretty chilled mum - but lies really get my goat and there are dozens a day and I just don't know what to do any more.

For example today so far:

'I finished my yoghurt. I put the rubbish in the bin.'
'What flavour was it?'
(silence)
'Hey, what flavour did you have?'
(silence and a whinge)
'Did you have a yoghurt?'
'NO! I DIDN'T! THERE!'
'Okay. Well why did you lie about it?'
(aggressive noise and storms off)

---

Me: 'Did you put your washing away?'
Him: 'Yes'
Me: 'You hung your tshirts up and put your uniform away neatly?'
Him: 'YES.'
Me: 'So should I check?'
Him: 'Ugh god NO I SAID I DID IT!'
I just found it all screwed up and stuffed in his pillowcase.

-

Him: I ate all my lunch.
Me: All of it?
Him: Yes.
Me: Go get your lunchbox then so we can clean it out ready for tomorrow.
Him: (starts to whine)
Me: 'Ooh that doesn't sound good, what did you leave?'
Him: 'Nothing'
Me: 'I'm not cross, just want to know if you'll be hungry when we get home or not. And I packed stuff I know you'll like, so if I've given you too much it would be useful to know that for the future.'
Him: 'I don't remember'
Me: (silence)
He goes to get his lunchbox and there are his sandwiches there. I ask him - without making a big deal of it - to sit at the table while I prep dinner and eat his sandwiches because he just said he was hungry. He whinges and says he hates ham and cucumber (its his fave). I turn my back for two seconds and he has STUFFED THEM IN THE CUTLERY DRAWER, hopped down and said barefaced grinning that he's eaten his sandwiches!!!

These are really trivial examples, he also tells much bigger lies as well. He lies several times a day about brushing his teeth, to which I now have to stand and brush mine with him twice a day to make sure he does them. He lies about having a shower, literally pats some water on his head and tantrums when I call him out on it. He lies about losing things - has taken expensive toys to school and lost them then lied about it, and I've had a call from his teacher saying she has them. He lies about being sick, pretends he's thrown up in his bed and then when I look, obviously there's nothing there. He lies about being 'the best' in his class at running/reading/anything, and then when I get the year end reports its all obviously bollocks. Concerningly, when I hold his hand to cross the road or similar, he has taken to shrieking 'YOU'RE HURTING ME GET OFF ME!' (It should go without saying that I absolutely am not, and would not, I have never laid a finger on him or any other child for that matter, he just knows that when he screeches that hateful phrase I will drop his hand like a hot cake and he gets his own way.)

He lies to my mum and his dad saying I don't feed him or he hasnt had dinner - rather than just say he's still hungry - that's happened a few times and I've been bawled out about it when I've bloody fed him! It got to a point where I was texting his dad photos of his dinner just in case he lied about it.

There are so many examples but typically my mind has gone pretty blank here, but you get the idea.

I know what some of you will be thinking, so I'll attempt to alleviate some of it here.

1. He gets a LOT of attention. As mentioned before, I deliberately jigged my working hours so I can do the school runs, and when we get home from school we hang out, drawing, making things, watching telly, going for walks, playing in the garden, he gets more one on one time than any other kid I know with a working parent.

1. I don't make a big deal out of the lies. I used to, but now I just brush them off with a casual 'well that was a lie' or depending what it is, give him the opportunity to change his story/tell the truth - which he sometimes does, sometimes adamantly sticks to the bullshit.

1. I know all kids lie, but every other sentence he says is untrue and it is literally exhausting me to have to permanently manage my irritation, call it out, try to get to the bottom of it all all the time. It's so tiring and confusing.

1. I'm a really black and white honest person. I've never role modelled lies or keeping secrets to him - I'm totally upfront about the fact that we don't keep secrets and we don't tell untruths, and I always have been.

1. I have taken him to a therapist in the past and he lied to her so much she genuinely didn't know how to help him.

I've tried taking his electronics away for a day per lie, but it got to 2 weeks in one day alone, which is just futile. I've tried giving him household chores to do as penance (small things, but he doesn't enjoy them, so it's something...)

I'm kind of at the end of my tether. It's embarrassing for a start, but also just exhausting. And really demoralising as a parent that he disrespects me so much that he lies to me every hour of the day about every tiny trivial thing.

What on earth can I do that I haven't tried already, please?

You're all over him like a rash for tiny things like what flavour yoghurt!)

I'm assuming she asks about the flavour to catch out the lie.

When and why did you decide to send him to a therapist?

Thanks all for your responses

I should add that I'm not a 'shouter', I think I've raised my voice in my lifetime fewer times than I can count on one hand. My mum was a shouter - I grew up hugely anxious and terrified but also determined not to grow into her or parent like her. I am a naturally quiet and non confrontation person.

The questions - eg what flavour yoghurt - are to give him an opportunity to retract the initial lie. I'm not 'up in his shit', I'm just trying to encourage him to be truthful. Asking if he's eaten his lunch is because we have only just started doing packed lunches and I want to be sure I'm doing it right. Maybe that's my own anxiety manifesting but maybe it's not helpful here - I concede.

He gets very angry and upset when he can't find clothes or when they're screwed up, insisting SOMEONE ELSE RUINED THEM instead of admitting he didn't put them away neatly. Again I have no point of reference for this - I was putting my own laundry away from the age of about six or seven, and I do it daily so it's only ever four or five items of his, not exactly a weeks load which would be quite a lot to expect a child to put away in one go.

I'm quite hurt by some of the responses that seem to be blaming me for asking simple questions. As I said before, there have been some really big lies that I'm trying to describe without outing us, huge significant deceits, it's not just about hiding food or pretending he's eaten, it's all part of a much bigger pattern of deceit and ritual dishonesty

I think I'll try giving him less attention and asking fewer questions, but they both feel mean and counter intuitive to me. My parents were benignly neglectful - never interested in us or our days and left us pretty much to raise ourselves. I had no physical affection as a child and was abused by a sibling - I guess I'm a bit too interested in my sons day and life partly because I'm trying not to repeat the mistakes I feel my parents made. But I seem to still be getting it wrong. He's just so resentful of me and angry as well as the lies, and I genuinely don't understand why.

@herculepoirot2

'fewer questions, more instructions' sounds like a good idea. Thankyou. He hates instructions, reacts really defiantly to the most basic of things, but I'll hold firm. Thanks.

@nonsenceagain

Thankyou. I've screenshot your response and will reread it a LOT!

@jossina

He lies constantly to everyone. School have flagged it as a concern.

Does he lie to everyone ? or just you, DP and school ? Does he lie to his father, grandparents, friends, etc ?

Cross post.

Hmm, I think there's deeper help to be sought than a chat board TBH. We can all armchair diagnose but it will be pointless as we aren't clinicians or psychiatrists or psychologists

@unicornbrexit

He lies to everyone, but it seems to be slightly worse with me.

Get him to a proper child psychologist.
Also l would encourage you to get some counselling yourself , not because l am blaming you, but because you sound like you have issues from your own childhood and we all benefit from having those dealt with.

@junebirthdaygirl I've been in therapy for the last eight months.

Have SENCO been involved with school issues?

Who recommended the therapist?

I think there are more issues here, if he doesn’t like instructions either.

Have you tried silence as a tactic? Just listen to the lie, and then wait it out?

I would take him to a psychologist (with his dad so it cant be blamed on conflicting parenting) to consider things such as ADHD/ASD etc. Get all evidence from school and any one else who can support the concerns. You will be taken more seriously with lots of supporting evidence from professionals. Running into the road at age 9 even for attention suggests total inability to understand serious consequences which is not age appropriate and is worthy of proper investigation. Good luck

If its a power thing that allows him to feel important with a person he knows is 'safe', is there any possibility he might he be being bullied at school? It might explain all the rage when you call him out... You sound like a lovely and successful mum to me by the way!

The questions - eg what flavour yoghurt - are to give him an opportunity to retract the initial lie. I'm not 'up in his shit', I'm just trying to encourage him to be truthful. Asking if he's eaten his lunch is because we have only just started doing packed lunches and I want to be sure I'm doing it right.

Unfortunately you aren't giving him the opportunity to tell the truth, it's forcing him further into the lie.
As for the packed lunch, don't even bother asking if he ate it- take it out of his bag and look for yourself. If he hasn't eaten enough after a couple of days, go back to school dinners.

Also, if he has a problem putting his clothes away, do it for him. I'm not saying let him get away with doing no chores, but help him and do some at the same time (you wash and I'll dry). You may be expecting him to do too much, hence the lying to get out of doing it.

And I'd take him to see a different doctor. If the last one was stumped then you need a second, third, fourth opinion.
Compulsive lying has many different causes, from adhd, where kids get distracted and then lie to protect themselves, or they may be anxious.

Agree with the less questions and less rising to the lying. Rather than ""more instructions" try letting him make more decisions, even if they're not always the greatest. No liar ever is going to tell the truth if you press them, they're just going to dig themselves in deeper.

I was a bit like your ds when I was his age. You sound a lot like my dm. It was like living under a spotlight. Try being less controlling even if it comes from a place of love. And remember - you can't punish him into telling the truth. All the punishing will achieve is to teach him to become an excellent liar.

BarbarianMum

That's a really good post and I agree

Thing is, none of your examples really matter. If he hasn’t eaten his lunch, he’ll be hungry. The world won’t end and he won’t die.

If his uniform is creased, the world won’t end.

It does sound to me as though he’s getting a lot of attention for it.

I think you're so desperate to parent this appropriately you are treating it like an issue he has rather than what it is, downright bad behaviour and a discipline issue. Stop trying to work out why it happens and just formulate a discipline/confiscation/punishment routine that you implement and stick to, same as you would for any bad behaviour and naughtiness.

Sorry OP,I’ve just read your post about your own childhood and I completely get where you’re coming from.

You sound insightful and such a caring mum.

As PPs have pointed out, compulsory lying is commonly associated with ADHD - can you take him to the GP and ask for a referral to see if that's the issue?

What stood out for me in your post was the huge conflict between holding his hand when he crosses the road, checking what he’s eaten for lunch, and yet expecting him to put his laundry away. I was expecting you to say he was 4, not 9 - then realised he’s older and that the chore is an appropriate one.

In some ways you are parenting him as you would parent a toddler. Please don’t take that as a criticism. My nine year old can go out with her friends and cross the toad without me. She can also decide for herself whether she’s eaten enough and what to put in her lunch.

I’m not sure whether this is because he isn’t your average nine year old (undiagnosed additional needs?) or whether it is a reaction to your own neglectful childhood. I think over-parenting can be stifling for a child and wonder if this is his way of rebelling, or exerting some control? I could be barking up the wrong tree though.

*Could you try believing him and letting him take the consequences? It wouldn't work all the time, but from your examples:

'I finished my yoghurt. I put the rubbish in the bin.' / ' I ate all my lunch.'
-> 'That's good, darling.'

Then later, when he complains he's hungry:
-> 'But you can't be hungry, darling, you had a yoghurt earlier / you ate all your lunch, you'll just have to wait for supper.'

And with regards to the clothes, you discover it later and tell him he can't go on his iPad until he's put them all away (and turn a blind eye to the creases).*

This is exactly what I did with my eldest. He doesn’t lie anymore and he was pretty prolific at one point but I couldn’t tell ya if it was that or he just grew out of it!

I lied a lot at that age and for years afterwards - As an adult I’ve been diagnosed with dyspraxia and inattentive ADHD.

Compulsive lying can be a way of seeking control in a world that’s confusing, where everybody else seems to know the rules. It’s also a way of covering up insecurity, trying to present yourself as more successful than you feel.

I’d echo what others have said - compile evidence from the school, other friends or family members, and get him to a good educational psychologist for a proper assessment.