to be really concerned about how much DS LIES?

[Insignificant0ther]

I have a 9 year old son. We have a stable and good home life - we live with my partner - who he adores - in my large lovely house. We both work, but split the school runs between us (80% me, 20% DP) so we spend a lot of time with him. He has friends round regularly, and we do nice things together on the weekends. He has a good relationship with his dad, who he stays with every other weekend. We have never fallen out or badmouthed each other in front of him - we are very good friends, the relationship just didn't work out.

DS is a consistent, absolutely infuriating liar. I don't know why or when it started - there's been no obvious trigger as far as I can tell. I'm a pretty chilled mum - but lies really get my goat and there are dozens a day and I just don't know what to do any more.

For example today so far:

'I finished my yoghurt. I put the rubbish in the bin.'
'What flavour was it?'
(silence)
'Hey, what flavour did you have?'
(silence and a whinge)
'Did you have a yoghurt?'
'NO! I DIDN'T! THERE!'
'Okay. Well why did you lie about it?'
(aggressive noise and storms off)

---

Me: 'Did you put your washing away?'
Him: 'Yes'
Me: 'You hung your tshirts up and put your uniform away neatly?'
Him: 'YES.'
Me: 'So should I check?'
Him: 'Ugh god NO I SAID I DID IT!'
I just found it all screwed up and stuffed in his pillowcase.

-

Him: I ate all my lunch.
Me: All of it?
Him: Yes.
Me: Go get your lunchbox then so we can clean it out ready for tomorrow.
Him: (starts to whine)
Me: 'Ooh that doesn't sound good, what did you leave?'
Him: 'Nothing'
Me: 'I'm not cross, just want to know if you'll be hungry when we get home or not. And I packed stuff I know you'll like, so if I've given you too much it would be useful to know that for the future.'
Him: 'I don't remember'
Me: (silence)
He goes to get his lunchbox and there are his sandwiches there. I ask him - without making a big deal of it - to sit at the table while I prep dinner and eat his sandwiches because he just said he was hungry. He whinges and says he hates ham and cucumber (its his fave). I turn my back for two seconds and he has STUFFED THEM IN THE CUTLERY DRAWER, hopped down and said barefaced grinning that he's eaten his sandwiches!!!

These are really trivial examples, he also tells much bigger lies as well. He lies several times a day about brushing his teeth, to which I now have to stand and brush mine with him twice a day to make sure he does them. He lies about having a shower, literally pats some water on his head and tantrums when I call him out on it. He lies about losing things - has taken expensive toys to school and lost them then lied about it, and I've had a call from his teacher saying she has them. He lies about being sick, pretends he's thrown up in his bed and then when I look, obviously there's nothing there. He lies about being 'the best' in his class at running/reading/anything, and then when I get the year end reports its all obviously bollocks. Concerningly, when I hold his hand to cross the road or similar, he has taken to shrieking 'YOU'RE HURTING ME GET OFF ME!' (It should go without saying that I absolutely am not, and would not, I have never laid a finger on him or any other child for that matter, he just knows that when he screeches that hateful phrase I will drop his hand like a hot cake and he gets his own way.)

He lies to my mum and his dad saying I don't feed him or he hasnt had dinner - rather than just say he's still hungry - that's happened a few times and I've been bawled out about it when I've bloody fed him! It got to a point where I was texting his dad photos of his dinner just in case he lied about it.

There are so many examples but typically my mind has gone pretty blank here, but you get the idea.

I know what some of you will be thinking, so I'll attempt to alleviate some of it here.

1. He gets a LOT of attention. As mentioned before, I deliberately jigged my working hours so I can do the school runs, and when we get home from school we hang out, drawing, making things, watching telly, going for walks, playing in the garden, he gets more one on one time than any other kid I know with a working parent.

1. I don't make a big deal out of the lies. I used to, but now I just brush them off with a casual 'well that was a lie' or depending what it is, give him the opportunity to change his story/tell the truth - which he sometimes does, sometimes adamantly sticks to the bullshit.

1. I know all kids lie, but every other sentence he says is untrue and it is literally exhausting me to have to permanently manage my irritation, call it out, try to get to the bottom of it all all the time. It's so tiring and confusing.

1. I'm a really black and white honest person. I've never role modelled lies or keeping secrets to him - I'm totally upfront about the fact that we don't keep secrets and we don't tell untruths, and I always have been.

1. I have taken him to a therapist in the past and he lied to her so much she genuinely didn't know how to help him.

I've tried taking his electronics away for a day per lie, but it got to 2 weeks in one day alone, which is just futile. I've tried giving him household chores to do as penance (small things, but he doesn't enjoy them, so it's something...)

I'm kind of at the end of my tether. It's embarrassing for a start, but also just exhausting. And really demoralising as a parent that he disrespects me so much that he lies to me every hour of the day about every tiny trivial thing.

What on earth can I do that I haven't tried already, please?

Agreed but he’s already a liar OP. By letting the small lies go and focussing your punishment on the big ones, you are being more effective in your discipline. Punishing truancy and lying over yoghurt in the same way is not going to drive anything home with him; in fact all it will do is encourage the lies.

I have experience of this. I used to lie a lot when I was a kid. For me it was anxiety around my mum (she was a shouter and would severely punish me for everything from breaking a cup accidentally to forging a signature on a detention slip) and this fear that my true self was never going to be good enough. That cycle only broke after I moved out and I experienced people not questioning / doubting / punishing me automatically for white lies, and I realised I didn’t need to lie to get people’s attention — I already had it.

In your op where you said 'I know what you're thinking' and then went on to say he gets lots of attention, I was thinking 'this kid gets far, far too much attention.'
I would have paid no heed whatsoever to any of your examples.

'Yoghurt...'
'Marvellous.' End of conversation.

I wouldn't have said anything about the clothes. If they're all screwed up when he goes to wear them, that's his problem.

'I ate all my lunch'
'Marvellous.'

Bearing in mind the conversation you overheard, do you think he knows he lies? I know this sounds stupid, but he's reminding me of a friend I know. This guy claims he always tells the truth is asked the right question, yet his version of the truth can be at odds with reality. But I truly believe he didn't lie as such, it's just that he's so sure about how things should be that he can't comprehend they're otherwise. It's hard to explain without making him sound stupid, which he's not.

My daughter (nearly 13) has been doing this for a while now and being devastated when we don’t believe her. Told her we’re not idiots and she can’t have it both ways. If we have to follow her to her locker to visually see her school jumper, that’s what we do. If it’s embarrassing for her, then good. So far, so good. (Older demographic though!)

when I hold his hand to cross the road or similar, he has taken to shrieking 'YOU'RE HURTING ME GET OFF ME!' (It should go without saying that I absolutely am not, and would not, I have never laid a finger on him or any other child for that matter, he just knows that when he screeches that hateful phrase I will drop his hand like a hot cake and he gets his own way.

So don't react that way. Just say, quite calmly "Of course I'm not" and carry on.

That sounds so hard op

I am just wondering... if he were your second - never mind your fourth or fifth - child, would you even notice this behaviour? And if you did, would you do anything other than say "yes, dear"? It might possibly help to imagine he's one of many, and give this all much less attention and thought. You have said that your DS gets lots of attention - but it sounds to me as if he might possibly get too much. The hand-holding thing sticks out to me. If one of mine said I was hurting them by holding their hand, I'd tell them to stop being so ridiculous, and that would be that (though I would only be holding the hand of a 9 yo in very specific and potentially dangerous circumstances, it's true).

You sound like you're all up in his shit the whole time. Poor kid is lying just to shut you up. Leave him alone!

(Sorry, I say that kindly really. It sounds like he gets far too much attention. You're all over him like a rash for tiny things like what flavour yoghurt!)

Have had too much experience of this and really sympathise. The professional advice we got was not to directly ask the child questions which ‘allow’ them to lie. So, instead of ‘did you throw your sandwich in the bin?’, say: ‘I see you threw your sandwich in the bin. That’s really wasteful and I’d prefer it if you didn’t do that’. Set out what the punishment will be and follow it through. Make it as immediate as it can be; turn off TV, tablet etc... for 30 mins; earlier bedtime; no pudding, for example.

And think younger. Lying is very common in toddlers who really don’t know any better. When he lies like a toddler, treat him like one.

Finally, any chance of deeper issues? Lying is not uncommon in children with ADHD, for example.

Does he lie constantly at school as well? If he doesn't that might at least clue you in to whether or not he knows what is the truth or if it is some kind of compulsion.

He’s lying for a reason, so must get something from it. It’s not to avoid harsh punishment if you’re typically a chilled out parent. If I had to guess, I would say it’s about power. When he lies, he knows the truth and you want to know it. For a little bit of time, he gets to feel like he has control. The rage when you refuse to believe him about anything then makes sense. You’re removing his only way to have power in your relationship.

I think this can go along with some personality disorders, but maybe it’s just random too. Certainly, he shouldn’t be allowed to get away with big lies, so punishment is good there. Maybe he needs more control over his environment? Questioning whether he’s eaten all his food and holding his hand in public might feel demeaning to him? I could be totally wrong though.

Firstly, hope you’re surviving all this advice!

Gotta add a bit though. I’d be curtailing all this high quality attention after school. Link it to the lying. Cos in the real world, people don’t want to hang out with liars, do they? Natural consequences.

By all means tell him you’re disappointed not to be able to do A, B and C. That you were looking forward to some special time together, but oh well. I’d be buying those ‘extra study’ workbooks, and ramping up the household chores. Since he’ll have all that free time to fill.

And yes, I’d try another therapist (one recommended in this area). It can take a few tries to find the right one. At the very least the appointments might bore him enough to curtail the lying??

Good luck OP. Sounds like a very hard way to live.

My first time posting, so hi,
I've just started reading ' The book You Wish Your Parents Had Read (and your grandchildren will be glad that you did)'
Very long title I know but it's brilliant. There's a section on lying and how to cope with it . It explains how your child processes everything at different stages of their development and explains how best to work with that.
I lied, not compulsively, not maliciously but as my granny called it " I embroidered the truth"

Op only asked him re yoghurt flavour as she knew he was lying re having one

I completely understand what you're saying. One thing which definitely is playing a part is his age. In my son this exact thing started to kick in at the same age. It ends up as furious aggressive stomps and shouting. In boys they become overcome by the hormone rush long before anything else is happening. The body is full of testosterone but the brain hadsn't got the capacity to understand or control it yet. With my son it started at about seven but by age nine was dreadful. You have to let some of the smaller things go, dont ask the questions about more mundane things like did you eat xyz, etc. The hormones are causing the brain to fight for independence which you have to allow over little things. If he doesn't eat he gets hungry, or he doesn't put his clothes away he doesn't have them and he will be a mess. He will definitely not be the first child to be like this nor the last. These things are i believe an important part in learning to self regulate.
However there are different issue a with really big lies. These must be punished. I wonder if it's a good cop bad cop situation without you and his dad realising it, or a push and pull attention thing which happens to some children.
Secondly, if you are used to spending lots of time with him you might need to leave him to his own devices a bit more at home. Boys can enter zombie zone at this age and need to let their brains do their thing.
Are you able to give examples of a serious lie he's told?

Does he lie in schol to teachers? If not id say he knows what hes doing and somehow you have to find out why

I meant to say in my previoys post where i mentioned letting him go off to be a zombie in his room, hes probably having too much attention and is attention spoilt if thst makes sense. For some children any attention will do, not just good attention and they'll deliberately be naughty to get quick attention.if he knows lying pushes your buttons it's easy for him. Its like a thrill. Like a said before, don't ask mundane questions and don't react at all to small lies. It will get boring telling them if nothing happens. You need yo get grandparents and his dad on board too.
Its like reducing/ removing attention from a toddler with tantrums. My toddler has got too used to o we attention while DH was working at home for months. Now he's put again she's a nightmare because she wants it all the time and I can't and won comply as it's unreasonable. She tantrums.i ignore. Its the same principle.
Update us.

OP - this has struck a chord with me, although perhaps not in the way you'd expect.
My mum was quite strict, not in a mean way, but everything was done her way, and we were firmly controlled with high expectations of behaviour. She would ask a LOT of questions, and I learned to lie just to keep her quiet/happy, ie to be the child she wanted me to be. My sister would rebel much more, and I'd say. is a more honest person.
I echo what pp have said - fewer questions, more instructions, maybe less one on one attention. See how that goes to start with.
Good luck - it sounds very challenging.

I think most of this is just exaggerated normal. I’d try getting silly with it. So if he says he ate all his lunch. I’d reply deadpan “Man, I’m full too. I hate a horse with chips for lunch. It was massive”. Just to show him a) you know he is lying and b) it’s daft! I agree.

This sounds just like DD. At that age. At 17 she was finally diagnosed ASD, Dyspraxia and other sld
Just so you know. It's exhausting!

"I'm not cross"

Sorry but imo that is where you're going wrong!

"I'm not cross if you've left any lunch I WILL be cross if you lie about it"

"These are really trivial examples"

Honesty is not trivial
Disobedience is not trivial
Poor behaviour eg stuffing sandwiches in cutlery drawer is not trivial

"he just knows that when he screeches that hateful phrase I will drop his hand like a hot cake and he gets his own way.)" again THAT is where you are going wrong. There are some things that are non-negotiable if you don't trust him to act safely at the roadside then he has to have his hand held. Personally on this particular thing it sounds like you're doing it unnecessarily but you know him.

"I don't make a big deal out of the lies. I used to" why did you stop?

"I have taken him to a therapist in the past and he lied to her so much she genuinely didn't know how to help him." Sorry but that indicates a crap therapist to me! Why did you take him there?

"If he faces no consequences for his behaviour, how is that possibly going to help in any way? In his mind, his lies are acceptable." Exactly - or at the very least he knows you don't follow through on discipline - which you absolutely need to get through to him before you hit teen years! Or else you'll have a hell of a time! Teens need to know there are certain things they cannot cross their parents on.

My sister was also a nightmare for this and parents did precious little she's now in her 40's and a compulsive liar to the point it's list her jobs and got her in trouble with the law. One of the many reasons I'm Nc.

Whyohwhy is right

Clear and consistent consequences followed through. Don't paint yourself in a corner "you're grounded till you're 30!" But a slow but consistent build -

1st lie - no electronics tonight
2nd lie - no electronics tomorrow either
3rd lie - and a 3rd day!

Do NOT back down. Stick to what you've said.

Calm quiet checking on whether he's lying. If he's told truth LOTS of praise.

And yes we all lie sometimes but some lies are unacceptable and I think while you're trying to correct this behaviour you need to come down on EVERY lie.

I've raised dd almost completely alone. She's now 18. She's no angel but I've seen peers of hers turning out far worse.

The one rule I've had with her always is an instant consequence that she hates for lying. And that if she lied about something that was already "naughty" (for lack of a better descriptor), the consequence for that was instantly & automatically doubled. No negotiation.

I never once backed down or didn't instigate this rule.

At one point in teens she had a new friend rather too fond of lying to parents who tried to get dd to lie to me, dd and her friends who already knew me well explained how and why that simply didn't work with me.

Helps that I can instantly tell when she is lying.

I think some posters are focusing too closely on what the example lies were about rather than the lack of honesty which is the issue op is really wanting to address. That's just the examples she could think of.

Yes it's fairly common at this age but it also needs nipped in the bud.

Him losing the temper - again it's a mistake to give in to it. Ensure he and expensive items are safe then otherwise ignore. Such bad behaviour should not be rewarded either by attention or your giving in to what he wants to get.

I think he could benefit from some healthy neglect. You are on his case too much. I felt sorry for the kid reading all your questions. I have never once asked any of my 3 kids if they've eaten their lunch. I gave them lunch. I couldn't care less what they did with it. If they're hungry because they threw it away that's their problem.

Practice not asking him questions. You are on his case too much.
With the example of being best in class, poor kid, as far as he knows he is best. How can a 9 year old judge. I'm a teacher for over 30 years and see that children have no idea, often, how they rate in class. Maybe teacher praised his work and he felt great. I would hate a child to know who is best or worst.
You cant change him..you've tried...but you can change yourself and see if that works. Develop a different pattern. Focus on the things he does well.
Have you read..How to talk so your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk.
It may give you some ideas for dealing with things in a different way.
Also maybe set up an appointment with a child psychologist rather than a counsellor. The anger and fury needs to be looked at.
I don't know the system in the UK for getting access to one but it's probably through the GP.

I would try not picking up the rope on some of them, if you can. So if he says he’s had a yoghurt just say ‘that’s nice’ instead of interrogating him about the flavour. Obviously there will some some where you can’t do this because there are consequences, but since it’s hard to know what his motivation is for the lying I would try not giving him any real response as often as possible. If it’s a weird kind of attention seeking that would hopefully take the heat out of it.

At 9 he should be able to cross the road without holding your hand surely