to be really concerned about how much DS LIES?

[Insignificant0ther]

I have a 9 year old son. We have a stable and good home life - we live with my partner - who he adores - in my large lovely house. We both work, but split the school runs between us (80% me, 20% DP) so we spend a lot of time with him. He has friends round regularly, and we do nice things together on the weekends. He has a good relationship with his dad, who he stays with every other weekend. We have never fallen out or badmouthed each other in front of him - we are very good friends, the relationship just didn't work out.

DS is a consistent, absolutely infuriating liar. I don't know why or when it started - there's been no obvious trigger as far as I can tell. I'm a pretty chilled mum - but lies really get my goat and there are dozens a day and I just don't know what to do any more.

For example today so far:

'I finished my yoghurt. I put the rubbish in the bin.'
'What flavour was it?'
(silence)
'Hey, what flavour did you have?'
(silence and a whinge)
'Did you have a yoghurt?'
'NO! I DIDN'T! THERE!'
'Okay. Well why did you lie about it?'
(aggressive noise and storms off)

---

Me: 'Did you put your washing away?'
Him: 'Yes'
Me: 'You hung your tshirts up and put your uniform away neatly?'
Him: 'YES.'
Me: 'So should I check?'
Him: 'Ugh god NO I SAID I DID IT!'
I just found it all screwed up and stuffed in his pillowcase.

-

Him: I ate all my lunch.
Me: All of it?
Him: Yes.
Me: Go get your lunchbox then so we can clean it out ready for tomorrow.
Him: (starts to whine)
Me: 'Ooh that doesn't sound good, what did you leave?'
Him: 'Nothing'
Me: 'I'm not cross, just want to know if you'll be hungry when we get home or not. And I packed stuff I know you'll like, so if I've given you too much it would be useful to know that for the future.'
Him: 'I don't remember'
Me: (silence)
He goes to get his lunchbox and there are his sandwiches there. I ask him - without making a big deal of it - to sit at the table while I prep dinner and eat his sandwiches because he just said he was hungry. He whinges and says he hates ham and cucumber (its his fave). I turn my back for two seconds and he has STUFFED THEM IN THE CUTLERY DRAWER, hopped down and said barefaced grinning that he's eaten his sandwiches!!!

These are really trivial examples, he also tells much bigger lies as well. He lies several times a day about brushing his teeth, to which I now have to stand and brush mine with him twice a day to make sure he does them. He lies about having a shower, literally pats some water on his head and tantrums when I call him out on it. He lies about losing things - has taken expensive toys to school and lost them then lied about it, and I've had a call from his teacher saying she has them. He lies about being sick, pretends he's thrown up in his bed and then when I look, obviously there's nothing there. He lies about being 'the best' in his class at running/reading/anything, and then when I get the year end reports its all obviously bollocks. Concerningly, when I hold his hand to cross the road or similar, he has taken to shrieking 'YOU'RE HURTING ME GET OFF ME!' (It should go without saying that I absolutely am not, and would not, I have never laid a finger on him or any other child for that matter, he just knows that when he screeches that hateful phrase I will drop his hand like a hot cake and he gets his own way.)

He lies to my mum and his dad saying I don't feed him or he hasnt had dinner - rather than just say he's still hungry - that's happened a few times and I've been bawled out about it when I've bloody fed him! It got to a point where I was texting his dad photos of his dinner just in case he lied about it.

There are so many examples but typically my mind has gone pretty blank here, but you get the idea.

I know what some of you will be thinking, so I'll attempt to alleviate some of it here.

1. He gets a LOT of attention. As mentioned before, I deliberately jigged my working hours so I can do the school runs, and when we get home from school we hang out, drawing, making things, watching telly, going for walks, playing in the garden, he gets more one on one time than any other kid I know with a working parent.

1. I don't make a big deal out of the lies. I used to, but now I just brush them off with a casual 'well that was a lie' or depending what it is, give him the opportunity to change his story/tell the truth - which he sometimes does, sometimes adamantly sticks to the bullshit.

1. I know all kids lie, but every other sentence he says is untrue and it is literally exhausting me to have to permanently manage my irritation, call it out, try to get to the bottom of it all all the time. It's so tiring and confusing.

1. I'm a really black and white honest person. I've never role modelled lies or keeping secrets to him - I'm totally upfront about the fact that we don't keep secrets and we don't tell untruths, and I always have been.

1. I have taken him to a therapist in the past and he lied to her so much she genuinely didn't know how to help him.

I've tried taking his electronics away for a day per lie, but it got to 2 weeks in one day alone, which is just futile. I've tried giving him household chores to do as penance (small things, but he doesn't enjoy them, so it's something...)

I'm kind of at the end of my tether. It's embarrassing for a start, but also just exhausting. And really demoralising as a parent that he disrespects me so much that he lies to me every hour of the day about every tiny trivial thing.

What on earth can I do that I haven't tried already, please?

He's been tested for ADHD and ASD as I have ASD, which is part of the reason why i can come across as focusing on truth and details. I agree he's insecure about being seen as successful but I praise him for good things, go to all his assemblies and school stuff, constantly heap praise where it's due for the most minor things, he's certainly not lacking in appreciation!

sounds like you ask too many stupid questions
Sometimes kids just don't want to say or want to do things in their own time

Who assessed him and concluded there was no SEN? Did you have evidence from school and support of his dad etc at the appointments? I would try again with a leading private ed psych. Not sure how most people on here can think he would run in front of cars and be totally unaware of danger just because you ask too many questions. Far more likely that lies are his way of coping with feeling confused and insecure due to an SEN which may portray very differently to your own ASD. Good luck

I think I would go & get another child psychologist.
for the minor stuff, just let him live with it.
Is the theme often food related ?
He's not even doing it cleverly, he could easily throw the lunch in the bin & then lie.
he should live with the consequences. ie, he's hungry. He is 9.
You are making his lunch, he is wasting it.
Tell him he has 2 choices, he can put together his own lunch, if he doesn't eat it, it sounds like there is too much, or he is eating other stuff (chocolate, crisps ? does he have pocket money, does he go by a shop ?) or can have school canteen lunch.
re uniform, if he doesn't like it crushed (sounds a bit OCD ish ?) he should put it away, you do not step in.
If he throws a tantrum then fine, if he smashes his stuff, fine. don't clear it up, don't replace it.
I would be hiding my purse also

@cooldarkroom

Funny you say that re purse - I had a change pot in the hall I'd use for quick pops to the shops - paper, milk, etc, and have had to remove it as he would steal from it and buy sweets at school. He's not as smart as he thinks - he would leave the wrappers in his pockets!! This happened so much that now his pocket money isn't physical, it's written in a ledger that he can see at any time, like a bank statement but handwritten in a cash book. This was implemented so that he has no reason to have any cash at all, as a result of him stealing. And we aren't talking the odd ten pence, it was fivers!!

He steals food from the cupboard too - and yes it is stealing because it's not his snacks, which are plentiful and all chosen by him, but things like my green and blacks chocolate selection my mum bought me for my birthday, or other top shelf special things. And then lies about it, and kicks up when I find the wrappers in his room.

I'm just exhausted.

Re SEN, his dad and I kept detailed notes and both went to meetings at school to discuss. We are a team and united front. school are as exasperated as we are but can't identify any SEN. Hes bright and a fast learner, just thirsty for all the attention, good or bad.

And I think it sounds like I'm always questioning him but who doesn't ask their child questions? It's not done in an overbearing way - my tone is light and jolly because I can't emphasise enough how much I hate arguments and confrontation. Asking him if he had the yoghurt he said he wanted, is that wrong somehow? Am I a bad parent for showing an interest in my sons wellbeing?

Some people are being unnecessarily harsh here. The OP is doing her best and unless you’ve lived with this, you can’t know how exhausting it is.

The stealing rings even more alarm bells for me. I know it’s exhausting on top of everything else, but insist on a referral to CAMHS or get a private diagnosis if you can afford it. It sounds like ADHD is a distinct possibility.

School cannot possibly diagnose SEN you need a psychologist and a good one as it is not as straight forward especially when bright and masking symptoms. Ideally private as it will be very slow otherwise and you are already frustrated.

Sorry @surgery246 I should have been clearer, school involved an ed psych. Twice.

I didn't say you are a bad parent.
What I am saying is what you do isn't working, so change what you do. Get some advice about when and how to do that.

Its no good trying to avoid conflict, you have a child that actively seeks it. So you need to learn skills to manage that. Seek professional help from someone who understand behaviour therapy and who can watch you interact with each other.

@theinebriati

I've tried that. He can be very manipulative. Acts good as gold and absolutely delightful with an audience. Kept it up with my DP for the first two years of our relationship, DP thought I was making up how rude and deceitful he was until he dropped the act. He is absolutely charming in front of guests, family, friends, really sweet and kind. When it's just us, he is so deceitful and lies so much that if this was an adult we would be calling it gaslighting and abuse. But because it's a child I get told 'all kids do it'. Not like this, they dont. It really is emotionally draining and I'm struggling to focus on my work or function in my relationship as it is taking such a toll.

I praise him for good things, go to all his assemblies and school stuff, constantly heap praise where it's due for the most minor things.

I know that this is a popular tactic for addressing bad behaviour, but I personally think it can come across as insincere and (worse) could end up sending the message that the parent has very low expectations of the child.

You don't tell the child they are being watched, the therapist will install hidden cameras and film several interactions over a period of time to analyse the interactions.

Please, see a behavioural specialist asap.

I also agree with the person who said you're (for the lack of a better expression) 'all up in his shit'. It sounds like he's under some pretty constant and rather excessive scrutiny, which I can imagine gets pretty annoying for him and I can see why he would just say whatever he thinks you want to hear in order to get you off his case. I understand you have your reasons for this and you've got all the best intentions (and of course I might be completely wrong), but I agree with others who said stop asking him so many questions.

My nephew is a bit like this by the way. I don't know why.

School involving an ed psych is absolutely nothing like a proper assessment. If it is affecting your life to the extent you say then take him for a proper full assessment privately. If school involved the ed psych twice then they were obviously not happy with the first decision and if the same person just came back for another observation it wont be any different. It cant hurt to try a proper full assessment and at least you will feel you are doing something to try to help and hopefully it will give you some answers.

Here is a thought OP.

DOes he get enough time playing with other kids out of school? I think modern children get so little unstructured playtime - especially a 9 year old who really should be spending long periods of time playing without adult supervision (And would have been up to a generation ago) - you say you pick him up every day and do a lot of activities with him -

He needs to learn from his peers - from other kids - how tedious and annoying lying is - children evolved to play and learn through free play what is normal social behaviour.

I see in kids who do a lot of adult structured activity (and school sadly is now mainly adult led so little time for play) - that they are often quite whiny and annoying - I don't mean that judgementally - I just think they aren't learning how to get along with others in a nice way...because adults are always there intervening.

I'd put him in after school club or similar a couple of days a week so you aren't always there to direct his behaviour - his peers would soon get bored of lies or he would realise there was no point telling them.

@waterrat

Yes he does get play time with other children - we have signed up for some after school clubs (they were very ahrd to get into) so I will see if this changes anything when he is socialising more with other children. He also has three siblings at his dads, all younger, who he plays with, but it's an endless stream of tales and lies there too, which is exhausting to have to listen to when he gets back (or when his dad rings me in exasperation to talk to him!)

Far too much attention on poor behaviour. Ignore it. Reward good, star chat maybe or other behaviour modification.
Talk to him about anything and everything else. Don't mention lies or stealing, don't ask about it. There can be consequences but don't keep on about it

Not much to add other than the fact that you sound like a really lovely mum.
I’m not sure what to suggest as I have a kid who’s the opposite.

Maybe try to see how he reacts if you lie to him? Because he clearly doesn’t understand the effect it is having on those around him... don’t say you’re doing it, just sporadically to stuff that you know he has a vested interest in..
“Mum, what are we having for tea?”
You: blah blah spaghetti Bol.. (which isn’t true but something that he really likes)
Then present him with his actual dinner... and walk away like you’ve done nothing untoward... things like that

I would normally condone lying but it sounds like drastic measures are needed because this would drive me nuts x

Wouldn’t normally ...doh!

It must be awful to live with. And stressy. Sympathies, OP .

YY to after-school club - he learns from his peers, you get a break.

YY to switching off the attention when he lies. Unless it's really serious, when you punish, and keep up the sanctions as you said.

And don't get dumped with his DF calling you to sort lies out. a) bloody cheek b) very, very bad for a child to see how easily adults can be manipulated c) so turn the phone off when DS is with DF. You'll all live.

My oldest was like this. I ended up asking fewer questions because I had no clue if he was telling the truth or not. Sometimes asking the same question again works but not setting him up for a fall worked better for me. It was really hard and it took years for him to finally learn that it's much better to admit you lied/screwed up quickly and dragging out the lie is going to make me far angrier than if you admit it straight away and fix what you can. Most mistakes at that age have a solution - you steal money, you pay it back or sacrifice this week's pocket money etc

In the case of the lunch, don't ask just look yourself. It's fine to ask if he liked today's yoghurt flavour better than yesterday's but maybe he genuinely forgot? My kids are more interested in socialising at lunch so pay little attention to the food and I can see why he might not be aware of how much he ate if he's daydreamy like another one of my kids. With the yoghurt I would have let it go rather than let him know that I knew he'd lied as it's such a minor issue. Better still, try to avoid asking him say something like "I see you haven't eaten a yoghurt" so he doesn't have to lie.

I've not had chocolate and sweets in my cupboards since ds1 was a toddler. I buy sweets or chocolate for the kids on a Friday and they are free to eat it whenever. Ds1 is unable to resist taking food if it's in the cupboard so stuff like crisps are bought in the day that they are eaten. He's never shoplifted or taken from other people's houses so this is the easiest solution for our family.

Ds1 is 18 now and despite being told about the "boy who cried wolf" story, ended up with the reputation at home of probably lying about most things. It's years since he was like your son but everybody still thinks when he says something. Luckily he didn't repeat this behaviour at school so he's always been very popular. I think that insecurity and anxiety is a major driver for his more devious behaviours. The fact that his siblings never acted like this probably exacerbated the problem.

Can your Ds be trusted to cross the road without holding hands? I'd be discussing with him a new system where he crosses when you say "Let's cross" He is doing the "you're hurting me" trick because that's how he gets what he wants. He might respond well to be treated older than you are. Does he want constant one or one time? It sounds very helicoptery at your house. I'm sure that he enjoys spending time with you but most 9 year olds aren't constantly entertained by parents like a pre-schooler or toddler might.

I'd see another therapist it obviously is something severe going on and nothings working

And tell your ex not to phone you everytime he lies what does he want you to do about it when it happens to you to