To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

I'm pro women, pro reality, pro safeguarding, pro protecting children from making disastrous far reaching decisions about their bodies and fertility upon a social contagion.

I don't think trans people should compete in gendered sport because of the obvious advantage.

You're in good company. Martina Navratilova, Sharron Davies, Kelly Holmes, among others, agree with you.

Unfortunately that is transphobic apparently.

Martina Navratilova, whose coach was a transwoman, and who is a lesbian, was told she was transphobic and TRAs got her fired from one of her jobs on the back of it.

I don't think most posters are anti trans. But they are pro women's only spaces and using the biological definition of women in that view.

So for example I do not want a person whobidentifies as a woman but still has a penis in a swimming changing area with me. However, I'd gladly invite them out for a meal, chat about life with them and treat them how I'd treat anyone else.

Vulnerable group my arse. Many of them are vocal, aggressive and woman hating.

Quite!

The difficulty is that many trans people do have difficult lives and are vulnerable and need support- but many others seem to wield an extraordinary amount of power. Feminists have been trying for 40 years to get Ms to be the universally accepted title for women and have not yet succeeded. Trans people have managed to get people sacked for using the wrong pronoun.

And of those who are vulnerable, it's usually men that are the cause of that, not feminists.

Feminists have been trying for 40 years to get Ms to be the universally accepted title for women and have not yet succeeded. Trans people have managed to get people sacked for using the wrong pronoun.

And arrested. That's not just power, that's a superpower.

*how do you feel about trans people with gender dysphoria who've been through HRT, surgery and so on?
They’re likely more out of place in mens spaces than womens spaces at that point so what's the solution for them?

Make the men’s safer for them. Teach males not to attack other maleS.

⬆️ This.

Toilets, changing rooms and the like have been segregated according to biological sex, not whatever “gender” a person might believe themselves to be.

A post-operative transperson still retains the biological sex they were born with, ergo, in the case of transwomen, they should not use facilities designated for biological females.

I’m not surprised they don't want to use male toilets - small blame to them for that. But the answer is not to encroach on facilities intended for biological females.

I'm not anti-trans but I am pro-woman. The fact TRAs think I'm anti-trans because of that shows how harmful some of what they want is to women.

I'm 100% happy to call a person by their wanted pronouns. I'm 100% happy for you to wear makeup and dress how you want. I'm 100% happy for you to be whichever gender you want to be to your friends, family, professionals etc.

However. There are some areas that are segregated based on biological sex, not societal gender. Bathrooms, changing rooms, women's violence shelters. Those need to stay open to biological women for their safety.

If you think I'm anti-trans because of that you are anti-woman.

@BogglesGoggles , off topic but I wanted to reply to your disingenuous post. By calling Israel a "Jewish state" rather than "a state", there is an automatic presumption that all Jews are connected to and responsible for Israeli domestic and foreign policy. In tbe same way as calling Saudi a "Muslim" state you would be saying all Muslims are connected to and responsible for Saudi domestic and foreign policy.
Which by extension of your childish interpretation makes all Jews legitimate targets if you want to criticise Israeli policies and all Muslims legitimate targets if you want to criticise Saudi policies.
Dangerous childish ignorant nonsense. And maybe you should look carefully at yourself for saying such things.

@bellinisurge try that again. I said Islamic, not Muslim. Clearly I meant Jewish in the same sense. They are states that adhere to religious doctrine as part of their policy. They are religious states as opposed to secular states. Has nothing to do with adherents of the religions who are not citizens of those states. It’s all pretty obvious so go patronise someone else.

Feminists have been trying for 40 years to get Ms to be the universally accepted title for women and have not yet succeeded. Trans people have managed to get people sacked for using the wrong pronoun.

And arrested. That's not just power, that's a superpower.

Yep.

You don't get it, do you@BogglesGoggles . Maybe live in a reality where Jews anywhere in the world are targetted with attacks because of the attacker's disagreement with Israeli foreign policy. Using exactly the justification that you have used. Disgusting.

Anti trans?! What a joke. Have you ever been outside of mumsnet? Have you seen how anti women most of the Internet is? How women receive rape and death threats for daring to speak out about anything? I’ve never, ever seen such threats made to trans women on here. I’ve never seen trans women treated with the hostility many men show women on various websites. How about you wring your hands over that? Or maybe the people who do make similar threats to trans women, or is that not “woke” enough to care about?

Being pro women, talking about women’s rights and what we stand to lose, IS NOT HATE.

I want trans people to be respected, allowed a private sexual life the same as everyone else, I want them to be free from discrimination, I want them to be allowed to live their lives free from harm and in peace. I want them to be as visible or as private as they want to be

I don't want a biological male to win the women's award at work and I don't want a biological male in my sleeper carriage or in the sauna at the gym

Well said @DexyMidnight

OP, I think on an anonymous forum people can be more honest how they feel. In public, perhaps they feel they have to be more PC / right on

@bellinisurge you clearly don’t get it either. What so stupid people think and do doesntchange facts. There are anti Israel Jews who acknowledged that Israel is a Jewish state and either cobdemn the method of it creation or the existence of religious states altogether. Just because other people lie and say stupid things doesn’t mean you can do the same

I try to steer clear because I'm not clever enough to understand all the arguments - and quite frankly I'm a little intimidated by some posters- but I appreciate that AIBU is not a forum for the shrinking violets.

However I have been a little shocked at some of the deliberately goady anti MTF trans posts in other threads- there were some in a post about gender neutral toilets. One poster used speech marks around the female first name of a couple of prominent trans women one of whom has identified as a woman since 1994- longer than some posters have been alive. That's just really rude and disrespectful I think.

Men who pretend to be trans in order to get access to women are a whole other issue that needs dealing with separately.

That is the issue we are trying to deal with. Self ID leads to it. No one here is 'anti-trans' on a human level, they are concerned about that very issue of abuse of the system, which is already happening.

Men who pretend to be trans in order to get access to women are a whole other issue that needs dealing with separately.

OP Two different men decide to adopt a feminine gender stereotype; one has sex dysphoria and is trans and the other is a sexual predator exploiting self ID laws. Can you tell me how you would know the difference? Do you think we should accept the harm this may cause to women as collateral damage in protecting trans people's feelings?

“One poster used speech marks around the female first name of a couple of prominent trans women one of whom has identified as a woman since 1994- longer than some posters have been alive. That's just really rude and disrespectful I think.”

I agree.

What do you think of the prominent TRA who says that once lesbians get over their “genital hangups” they usually “cope” with penetrative sex with a penis?

Men who pretend to be trans in order to get access to women are a whole other issue that needs dealing with separately.

It's difficult to know how to tackle that when there is such a vocal group of people insisting that this has never happened and will never happen.

I don't think it's anti-trans. I do think it is anti-gender because I don't think the stereotypes about womanhood speak to many women and most find them restrictive and offensive. There's an obvious overlap. But I think it would be a mistake to assume that Aibu holds any animosity to those individuals who are trans but it is true to say most women here hold no truck with gender discourses.

@BogglesGoggles , I'm sure you find lots of lovely nuance to justify your views. I can assure you that twats who attack Jewish kids at their school or who desecrate Jewish graves also come out with the same sort of language. They attack Jews and justify it by saying they are attacking Israel.
The "not all Jews support current Israeli foreign policy " doesn't get you away from tbe Jews = Israel bollocks you are spouting.
Very Jeremy Corbyn. Trying to argue that you aren't saying what you are obviously saying.

I think bathrooms are a none issue. Trans women should be fine to use women's bathrooms. I think the problem is the fear women have around it.

Actually no - the problem is that no one has sat down and done a risk assessment of what happens if a rapist decides they want to put on a dress and lurk in the ladies. No one has done a risk assessment on what happens if they decide to get in a female carriage on a sleeper train and rape the woman sharing their compartment. FWIW I think that transitioned transwomen should be allowed to use female spaces as they don't pose that threat.

I want to feel safe and want my teenage daughters to be safe in changing rooms, loos etc - anywhere that they might be vulnerable. I also want trans-women to feel safe to express themselves without fear of violence. But the way to do that surely is to work on making all male spaces safer for people who are biologically male but are transgender?

I think bathrooms are a none issue
bathrooms maybe are non issue because you get to shut the doors. However, you don't get to pick and choose - the same goes to any communal naked or semi naked space where you don't get doors.