To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

If bathrooms are a non-issue, why do sexual assaults rise in mixed sex bathrooms?

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

FWIW I think that transitioned transwomen should be allowed to use female spaces as they don't pose that threat.

Up until a couple of months ago I would have agreed with you. But have been subject to a barrage of abuse for that transphoia that I now can't include that caveat. Transwomen are men and I won't acquiesce to their demands at the cost of my own peace of mind, privacy or dignity. Sod that!

In other words trans activism has stipped me from being 'nice'. I have been bullied and backed into a corner that a year ago I would have apologised and wriggled out of, but now find that I don't actually care!

OP it is what it is, you cannot change sex

If mixed sex toilets and changing rooms were ideal WHY do people think we started using separate ones?
WHY was a women only swimming pool popular?
WHY did we start separating sports by sex?
WHY are midwives traditionally so often Mother’s?
WHY do girls talk to Mother’s/sisters/aunts about periods and relationships?

Things of course do change. I’m female and did a very “stem” course at university in the eighties. Despite fairly genuine need, I didn’t use the men’s toilets to do so.

BinkyBaa
“By anti-trans I'm referring more to the people who don't believe being transgender is legitimate. I think the complete exclusion of trans people is wrong.”

Literally no one has said it is not legitimate to feel / be Trans. Literally no one has said they want to exclude Trans people except in very limited / single sex women’s spaces.

“I'd personally rather have a more open dialogue around trans rights to confront/work around those fears instead of putting up roadblocks.”

Yes , me too. But as I said earlier when I ventured to have an open discussion around a woman losing her job for giving a legal opinion in response to a gvt consultation inviting such opinions , I was doxxed, declared transphobic and reported to my employer for being transphobic.

“Men who pretend to be trans in order to get access to women are a whole other issue that needs dealing with separately.”

Can you explain how this can be dealt with separately if self I.d becomes law? How can these people be identified without questioning their gender id? The exact thing the TRAs are trying to put a stop to in the reform of the GRA?

" WHY do people think we started using separate ones?"

a poster once said that she thought it was a hangover from "Victorian prudishness" or something. When I explained that there were headlines in the paper saying how good it was to achieve single sex wards and that there had been safety issues in the past, the poster said they didn't know.

I was walking past an ancient male loo with a male friend and he asked "where's the women's?" I had to explain to him there wasn't one because in the days Ancient Loo was built, there were no public loos for women. He had no idea.

all this "you can shut the door on a bathroom" baffles me. If there's communal sinks, then the person who wants to attack is just going to lurk there.

I am concerned about the move away from biological sex defining women. Women have fought for years against the stereotypes that have made it harder to progress in work and public life e.g. too emotional, not tough enough etc. If you don’t define being a woman by biology then you move back into defining woman by the standard female stereotypes (likes kittens and looking after everyone) that were so restrictive.

bathrooms maybe are non issue because you get to shut the doors.

Sure, generally we do.. unless we have to supervise a buggy..

And from more than one complaint I've seen, the men often don't bother shutting the doors and wee with them open.

“One poster used speech marks around the female first name of a couple of prominent trans women one of whom has identified as a woman since 1994- longer than some posters have been alive. That's just really rude and disrespectful I think.”

I agree.

What do you think of the prominent TRA who says that once lesbians get over their “genital hangups” they usually “cope” with penetrative sex with a penis?

Thats totally awful- but they aren't posting that crap on here and if they did they would quite rightly be shot down in flames. Whereas the poster was not.

One poster used speech marks around the female first name of a couple of prominent trans women one of whom has identified as a woman since 1994- longer than some posters have been alive. That's just really rude and disrespectful I think.

A poster was rude and disrespectful about a transwoman who presumably has a public profile. Not nice but this is par for the course on MN about loads of people, celebs, politicians, influencers, other posters, you name it, you'll find someone who decides to stick the boot in.

Is this what people mean by the terrible transphobia of MN? Does it really compare with the threats of violence and rape against gender critical feminists one can find all over the Internet? (Saying nothing of physical intimidation and actual violence in real life.)

Oh! Back to that 'literal' violence.

Forst time I read that I thought it was an autocorrect for literary It took a few FWR threads before I realised my error.

“Thats totally awful- but they aren't posting that crap on here and if they did they would quite rightly be shot down in flames. Whereas the poster was not”

Do you think there is any equivalence?

Nowadays, transphobia has become a meaningless term. Same with 'anti-trans'.

I believe that female people are biologically different from male people. I believe that males and females have different needs due to these biological differences. I believe that females face discrimination simply for being female. I believe that most violence, particularly sexual violence, is committed by males. I believe that I do not share the same experiences with transwomen as I share with other females.

These are all facts. Yet I can be accused of transphobia simply for stating them, even as beliefs.

Women -females- MUST be allowed to name and define ourselves as a group that excludes males. We MUST be able to discuss and debate the issues that affect us, without having to constantly change our language. It isn't anti-trans, it's pro-woman.

Is this what people mean by the terrible transphobia of MN? Does it really compare with the threats of violence and rape against gender critical feminists one can find all over the Internet? (Saying nothing of physical intimidation and actual violence in real life.)

There is nothing happening to the people on the "wrong" side of the fence in the trans debate that wasn't happening to the people on the wrong side of the racism or gay righgts debates.

But does citing racists getting beaten up or anti-same sex marriage campaigners getting death threats or online abuse, get anyone off the hook from lesser forms of racism/homophobia.

Gender critical women are sort of the same as racists and homophobes?

Do you never get tired of this really offensive conflation of completely different things? I mean really, is that what goes for argument when trying to slag off MN?

JAPAB why are you claiming that women hold structural power over men, and can therefore be classified along with racists and homophobes? Do you know or understand anything about history?

As better women than me have said: wrong side of history, my arse.

There is nothing happening to the people on the "wrong" side of the fence in the trans debate that wasn't happening to the people on the wrong side of the racism or gay righgts debates.

This is a very weird point. You think the one directional violence is evidence that women are wrong?

When you watch the karate kid, do you feel sad that the titular hero Jonny Lawrence looses at the end? Do you root for the shark in jaws?

QueenofPain

I agree, deffo seen some terf-y things on various posts on MN and complete invisibility of any allies.

Can you give an example? What do you consider terfy? Things like believing that biological sex is real and impacts on a person's life?

JAPAB why are you claiming that women hold structural power over men, and can therefore be classified along with racists and homophobes? Do you know or understand anything about history?

I didn't make any such claim. I just pointed out that you cannot justify or excuse isms or phobias by finding worse examples of what other people do.

I’ve rejected restrictive cultural gender stereotypes for as long as I can remember. I consider them to be very often harmful and constricting, especially for girls and women. The culture I enjoy most and the artists I like most are people who laugh at, bend and play with these roles.

I don’t believe in gender identity. It is impossible for a person to change their biological sex. I don’t believe anybody is born in the wrong body.

I think it’s wrong to – write a falsehood into law; compel people by law to speak words they do not believe; rewrite the law to remove women’s biological sex-based rights and protections; reinforce gender stereotypes; medicalise children who don’t conform to gender stereotypes. That’s it.

I don’t believe my view should be protected either. People must be protected, ideas must never be.

“I agree, deffo seen some terf-y things on various posts on MN and complete invisibility of any allies.”

Yep- I have too. They were deleted like lightning. And I consider myself an ally. But sometimes there are completely incompatible conflicts of rights. And then- I am with natal women.

And I would like a considered explanation of why the mixed pool at Hampstead wasn’t good enough?

For me, Bert - your post about the Hampstead Ponds was the GC debate in microcosm.

It was perfectly phrased and it crystallised so many of my own thoughts on the subject.

So, thanks!

Can I ask would people be happy sharing showers with people who are not women
Bare in mind many changing rooms including schools are like this including mine images.app.goo.gl/H6pdSPuXJiUqjs817