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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

712 replies

BinkyBaa · 04/06/2019 02:51

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

OP posts:
IAmAlwaysLikeThis · 08/06/2019 13:07

over50 what balanced view can there be? I don't want men in women's spaces. They want to be in women's spaces. There is no way to balance that.

Datun · 08/06/2019 13:07

There have been quite a few polls. Even one by Pink News showed the overwhelming majority of people wanted sex segregation.

BertrandRussell · 08/06/2019 13:09

“She and her friends have no issue with gender neutral toilets or trans people in general there.”

I don’t have an issue with trans people at University either. Chatting about Beowulf? No problem. I have an issue with transwomen skewing the crime statistics, taking over women’s sport and destroying women only spaces for women in crisis.

We only ever seen to talk about the easy stuff.

Outofinspiration · 08/06/2019 13:16

As we have failed to get it from LimeKiwi I was wondering if IlluminatiConfirmed or over50andfab would be able to give your definition of 'transwoman' in the context of this discussion?

Are you talking about a male who has had full SRS? Or just 'top surgery'? Just hormones but no surgery? No hormones or surgery but identifies as a woman and wears the clothes stereotypically associated with females on a daily basis? Any male who says he feels female? Someone who is non-binary and feels they should be allowed to choose whether they use the male or female space?

What exactly are we talking about here when it comes to allowing 'transwomen' into women's spaces?

over50andfab · 08/06/2019 13:51

To me a trans woman is someone who wishes to live as a woman - traditional women’s dress, name, make up etc (although I realise that is open to interpretation and everyone is different).

I can’t answer some of the questions like non binary as I don’t know enough about it. On HRT - yes. SRS whether top, bottom or both - well I think that if all transwomen had full SRS there might be more acceptance of them in women’s spaces. However I understand this is very expensive and not without risk.

Any male who says he feels female? Are there men who genuinely think this without taking anything like hormones and have no ulterior motive?

As for allowing transwomen into women’s spaces, I thought they were already allowed in?

And IamAlwaysLikeThis aren’t gender neutral facilities trying to go some way into addressing the issue - with floor to ceiling cubicles in loos?

DixieFlatline · 08/06/2019 13:56

to live as a woman - traditional women’s dress, name, make up etc (although I realise that is open to interpretation and everyone is different).

If it is open to interpretation and everyone is different, how does this definition of 'living as a woman' escape being thrown straight in the bin? I wear jeans and (women's) tops, never wear make-up, have hairier legs than my husband. I have a female name. Am I living as some kind of hybrid?

Datun · 08/06/2019 14:00

Any male who says he feels female? Are there men who genuinely think this without taking anything like hormones and have no ulterior motive?

Men with autogynephilia? Generally late transitioners, who are married, attracted to women, retain their penis.

Your male lesbian in other words.

Arousal is the ulterior motive, of course. But they genuinely have an issue. They're not predatory in the traditional sense.

Have you read the trans widows thread?

IAmAlwaysLikeThis · 08/06/2019 14:00

over50 how does one live as a woman? I spent the day in wellies, joggers and my husband's shirt, am I living as a man?

Why do we need gender neutral facilities then? I do not want to be in an enclosed space where a man can easily push me into a lockable cubicle, especially one with floor to ceiling walls tbh.

Could happen in the women's bathroom too, but at least someone might question him going in there and suspect he's there for nefarious reasons. What about in gender neutral toilets? Do we all suddenly trust men to not rape and assault women or something?

Outofinspiration · 08/06/2019 14:03

Thank you for answering over

However, don't you think that this:

To me a trans woman is someone who wishes to live as a woman - traditional women’s dress, name, make up etc (although I realise that is open to interpretation and everyone is different).

Is outrageously sexist? Do you really think that 'living as a woman' means wearing dresses and make up? What do you mean by 'traditional women's dress'?

Any male who says he feels female? Are there men who genuinely think this without taking anything like hormones and have no ulterior motive?

Under the latest thinking, it is transphobic to suggest that a trans person should have to make any physical changes to their body in order to be recognised as the opposite sex. Hence the push from Stonewall, and many others for self-ID.

Ereshkigal · 08/06/2019 14:04

As for allowing transwomen into women’s spaces, I thought they were already allowed in?

There's no legal prohibition on any male going in. It's up to the service provider to use and enforce single sex exemptions.

Fairenuff · 08/06/2019 14:06

It's based on fears of the unknown

Oh not it's not. It's entirely the opposite in fact. The lengths that predatory men will go to in order to access women and children are sadly very well known.

Karen White is a perfect example.

We know. We know all to well, don't say it's fear of the unknown.

Outofinspiration · 08/06/2019 14:08

Oh not it's not. It's entirely the opposite in fact. The lengths that predatory men will go to in order to access women and children are sadly very well known.

Exactly!

It's based on fear of the known. Of what women have known for a very, very long time. And continue to know.

LimeKiwi · 08/06/2019 14:10

I spent the day in wellies and joggers, am I a man?

Why's it always come back to looks?
I wear no makeup, live in boots and blokey type clothes, I'm completely all woman though.
Mind and body.
No wonder they feel they have to "pass" with makeup etc

BertrandRussell · 08/06/2019 14:10

We’re constantly being told that we can’t define womanhood by biology. I’d rather define it by biology than make up and clothes.

IAmAlwaysLikeThis · 08/06/2019 14:11

lime it was in response to someone else.

Fairenuff · 08/06/2019 14:14

On another thread someone posted a link to an article where a transwoman gave reasons for why they 'felt like' a woman. One of them was they wanted to be cute and shy and to blush when a man kissed them. Another was they wanted to giggle.

Honestly if this shit is what they think being a woman is they are more fucked up than they even know.

Outofinspiration · 08/06/2019 14:16

I wear no makeup, live in boots and blokey type clothes, I'm completely all woman though.
Mind and body.

How do you know you're a woman?

LimeKiwi · 08/06/2019 14:17

That's just one though, fairenuff.
"They 're fucked up if they think like this" is a bit of a sweeping generalisation from one person saying it!

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 08/06/2019 14:17

lime it was in response to someone else.

But if it wasn't taken out of context a spiteful comment couldn't have been made.

IAmAlwaysLikeThis · 08/06/2019 14:17

fairenuff the guys that post that shit are mostly anime fans whose vision of womanhood comes entirely from Japanese comics.

Disturbing.

LimeKiwi · 08/06/2019 14:18

It wasn't meant to be spiteful - whoever originally said it, I just wondered why it always comes back to looks.
Wearing wellies does not make you a man.

sackrifice · 08/06/2019 14:19

To me a trans woman is someone who wishes to live as a woman - traditional women’s dress, name, make up etc (although I realise that is open to interpretation and everyone is different).

What is a traditional woman's dress? Bearing in mind plenty of women wear trousers. Plenty of women have unisex names. Plenty of women wear no make up. What does this even mean?

IAmAlwaysLikeThis · 08/06/2019 14:19

lime yes that was my point.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

LimeKiwi · 08/06/2019 14:19

How do I know I'm a woman?
Body and mind. Both female

Outofinspiration · 08/06/2019 14:21

Body and mind. Both female

OK. I don't feel that my mind is female. I known I'm a woman because of my female body. Lots of women might feel like you, that they have a 'female mind', lots of people might feel like me.

What is the one thing that we all have in common?