To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

I think that in practice women are not going to object to an obviously female looking person in female spaces even if they do have a beard. I'd rather that person be safe in the ladies than accosted in the males.

However, if they pass they cannot be in the female spaces as it comes back to the same problem of how do we know who is a safe male and who is a dangerous male.

This solution isn't particually wanted though from what I've seen.

Why not? It's the most obvious, sensible option.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the populations would be very happy with this.

I’d go for a 3rd space. There was one at the Hampstead ponds. Not good enough, apparently.

“Why not? It's the most obvious, sensible option.”

Yep- and I bet most trans people would be happy with that too. But not the activists.

Why not? It's the most obvious, sensible option.

I agree but did you see the reaction to closed cubicals?
If that's seen as 'othering' a whole third space is going to be too.

If male toilets are a danger to transwomen, the solution isn’t to open up women’s toilets to them. Third spaces or additional mixed spaces and initiatives to tackle male prejudice are much more appropriate.

This solution isn't particually wanted though from what I've seen.

What have you seen? Where have you seen it?

What have you seen? Where have you seen it?

Did the Hampstead ponds debacle pass you by?

Either you accept most pass and will be indestingasble from the sex they present as, or you don't and male toilets are a danger to most trans women.

Most transmen pass relatively rapidly, once on testosterone, and tend to slide from being perceived as a butch lesbian to a bloke. Transwomen tend to go through an elongated stage of looking 'obviously trans', and some never fully pass, particularly those who transition later in life.

Testosterone is quite good at doing things like adding facial hair and deepening the voice. Estrogen, however, does not stop facial hair growing in the same way, or affect the voice box. On the other hand, bottom surgery for transmen is less well developed than the equivalent for transwomen.

You could never, however, put into law a system where only people who pass get to use the facilities of their acquired gender (who gets to decide if they pass or not?) or one where transmen and transwomen are treated differently - there would be a very swift legal challenge.

That’s why people argue for a third space.

And who's going to pay for that? Will you be personally chipping thousands in to have an extension built at your local swimming pool to house a set of changing rooms for trans people? What about small businesses with toilets?

"Specifically the floor-to-ceiling dividers for all-gender restrooms, they want them to be much … longer than for men’s and women’s restroom, and we take this as a sign of transphobia because … this basically comes out of a want for privacy and an all-gender restroom, and that want for privacy comes from a fear of trans and nonbinary people."

dailybruin.com/2019/05/28/students-voice-concerns-about-bathroom-policy-security-camera-monitoring/

A mixed space, whether single occupancy or multiple stalls, isn’t othering. Those who don’t mind sharing with the other sex can use it, as can parents with different sex older children or adult children with additional needs.

In any case, why does the desires of some transwomen, a very small number of people, trump the desires of significant numbers of women? We are talking about significant upheaval in how our society is run. We have to have solid reasons for changing things and those solid reasons don’t include shouting the loudest, emotional blackmail and intimidation.

Did the Hampstead ponds debacle pass you by?

I’m asking about non trans identified people, which I assume the pp was too.

I can’t recall any non trans identified people arguing for no third space and that transpeople should be forced to use male facilities.

If that's seen as 'othering' a whole third space is going to be too.

The logic just never adds up though.

Transpeople themselves say that they are different. They are special. They need xyz because they are different and special.

So you offer them facilities and they then complain that they are being treated differently.

There is no logic in any of the trans ideology. They even use the word literal when they mean the opposite.

Debate is so hard when we don't have common language because they have taken words and given them new meanings.

TWAW needs to go the same way as #nodebate so that we can all start working together to sort this out. Transwomen are not women. Until they accept that the debate can't happen because they won't entertain any difference between their bodies and female bodies.

You could never, however, put into law a system where only people who pass get to use the facilities of their acquired gender (who gets to decide if they pass or not?) or one where transmen and transwomen are treated differently - there would be a very swift legal challenge.
So sex segregation is best then...

I’m asking about non trans identified people, which I assume the pp was too.

You have assumed wrong.

And who's going to pay for that? Will you be personally chipping thousands in to have an extension built at your local swimming pool to house a set of changing rooms for trans people?

Like everyone else, I would be personally chipping in, yes. Did you object when the law required premises to add facilities for disabled people?

What about small businesses with toilets

In my experience, small businesses, ie, cafes, usually have only one or two unisex toilets.

I'm a few days behind... but IMHO Buck looks female.

Take away the bald, take away the tatts, take away the "stance". Female body. The anatomy from trapezes through abdomen is female. Oh sure, Buck's got the "guns" - but these are the guns femaled get when they weight train - but without the neck and all the other bulgy bits men get when they lift weights (or females who use far more testosterone than Buck clearly does).

What would I do if Buck came into the female toilets?

1. Buck wouldn't. Raised female, Buck wouldn't feel so bloody entitled and would be more than aware of the indescribable fear and discomfort it may cause.

1. I suspect - but cannot articulate quite why - that Buck would know exactly what to say to dispell fear in women. Again, socialisation.

Back on the general topic.

I was once pushed inside a cubicle, the door shut behind me and I was sexually assaulted in mixed toilets.

I have never been afraid of other females in toilets - but a man has the potential to cause harm and believe me, it's fucking terrifying being locked in a cubicle with an attacker.

The logic just never adds up though.

There is no logic to it.

You have assumed wrong.

Fair enough. The post I referred to didn’t make the distinction.

And who's going to pay for that?

Stonewall has millions and lots of powerful, influential contacts. They could make this happen. And yes, I'd certainly be happy to contribute.

The Hampstead Heath Ponds debacle rather confuses me - as far as I can tell, there was never any campaign from transwomen who wanted to use the ladies pond - and at the time I was living in London, moving in LGBT circles and walking the dog daily on Hampstead Heath, so I would likely have heard about it if there was. The first I heard of it was the City of London (which manages the Heath) explicitly saying that the Equality Act 2010 would be adhered to with regards to transwomen accessing the ponds, followed by some rather noisy protests from those opposed to it.

Trans people I know tend to regard swimming (even in a regular mixed pool) as being an activity to be avoided as it involves exposing so much flesh in tight clothes - which doesn't exactly improve confidence and is likely to make it obvious they're trans and so lead to hassle. Those brave ones who do decide to swim would most likely choose to use the mixed pond.

Quote from the City of London Corporation
"Lord also told PinkNews that, as far as they are aware, there has never been any trouble with a man trying to access the Hampstead ladies ponds by pretending to identify as a woman – which is what anti-trans activists say will happen when trans women are encouraged to use women-only spaces.

“As far as I’m aware, we’ve never had a man turn up and say, ‘Today I’m a woman and want to swim in the women’s pond.’ The only problems to date have been the so-called gender-critical feminist Man Friday protestors at the men’s pond,” Lord said."

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/06/06/hampstead-pond-transgender-policy-defended-legal-challenge/

Doesn’t have to be a whole new set of loos and changing rooms in most cases. Just some partitions and labels. Men, Women and Unisex.

Or, my personal preference- Women and Unisex.

The only problems to date have been the so-called gender-critical feminist Man Friday protestors at the men’s pond,” Lord said."

Fuckin pesky women wanting to ensure that their sex segregated spaces are maintained. Meanies.

"Lord also told PinkNews that, as far as they are aware, there has never been any trouble with a man trying to access the Hampstead ladies ponds by pretending to identify as a woman – which is what anti-trans activists say will happen when trans women are encouraged to use women-only spaces.

What's with the 'pretending to identify as a woman'? If you are male you shouldn't be in the female bit.

OK, men women and unisex for everyone to use.
Doesn't sound too bad.
Women and unisex though - so you're alright giving away men's spaces though?
Tad hypocritical if so