To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

@sackrifice I wasn't asking anyone to explain why the sure is against transwomen. My point was just that there doesn't seem to be any negativity or huge outrage towards transmen.

If the debate is truly about women and women's rights then it should also be for those women who identify as men.

sarah

sackrifice is referring to the fact that this has already been addressed

@SarahH12 you'll find the rights of transmen on here don't really get discussed as it's the men people seem to have a problem with. Taking over women etc.
It's not trans issues as such some have a problem with, just the taking over womanhood bit.
So must be a case of they're women, so they're fine with them.

My point was just that there doesn't seem to be any negativity or huge outrage towards transmen.

Kind of proves the point that mn is not transphobic doesn't it.

It's been stated over and over again for years that the problem is men. It's always been men and it always will be. That's why we have sex segregated areas in the first place and why we will always need them.

That's what women are fighting to keep. And if transwomen were really women they'd get it and stop trying to make everything unisex.

it should also be for those women who identify as men.

Or "women" for short.

Everyone would welcome transmen into female spaces with open arms.

"Trans" isn't the issue, sex segregation is.

Everyone would welcome transmen into female spaces with open arms.

Bullshit.

Because they're rapidly visually indistinguishable from cismen. Someone I know who transitioned (FTM) found that as he passed more, women reacted to him differently, and men started to make the sort of jokes to him that they'd never make to a woman. He was no longer welcome in women's spaces because he was very visibly no longer a woman, and acknowledged that by transitioning he'd given up some things (eg women's spaces where there was no direct male equivalent).

While you may believe, in theory, that transmen are welcome in women's spaces, in practice it doesn't work like that.

Everyone would welcome transmen into female spaces with open arms.

Would we?

Say, for example, we get to preserve sex segregated spaces. Fantastic. That means transwomen cannot use this space.

So a transman, who to all intents and purposes appears male, enters a woman’s changing room/toilet facilities - how would the women using this facility know that this person is a transman and not an actual man invading their space?

Are they supposed to challenge that person? And how would the the transman prove it?

In principle, I have no objection to transmen using women’s facilities, I just don’t know how it would work in practice.

Someone beat me to it, I see!

“My point was just that there doesn't seem to be any negativity or huge outrage towards transmen”

No. That’s because GC feminists are not “anti trans” Hope this helps.

“Are they supposed to challenge that person? And how would the the transman prove it?”

The thing is that women are used to a very wide range of “normal” when it comes to what women look like. That is why trans women have been quietly passing for generations. Not many transmen look like the oft quoted Buck. And those who do will presumably safely and happily use men’s facilities. Perhaps because transmen retain the societally programmed desire to be accommodating that women have? Just a thought.

I suppose in practice transmen would be accepted in female spaces until such point as they are transed enough to be accepted into male spaces.

So those who never really pass and would be at risk in a male environment would still be able to use the females because it would be obvious that they are trans and women would therefore have no objection.

I notice @limekiwi is dodging the difficult questions still....

So it's not really about trans people as a whole using the facilities of their acquired gender - it only applies to the ones that don't pass?

Good luck codifying that in law...

Exactly.

So a transman, who to all intents and purposes appears male, enters a woman’s changing room/toilet facilities - how would the women using this facility know that this person is a transman and not an actual man invading their space?

So you are saying most pass?

I thought they were attacked for being trans?

Is it noticeable or not?

“So it's not really about trans people as a whole using the facilities of their acquired gender - it only applies to the ones that don't pass?”

ahrugs. Pragmatism rules. Transpeople have been living as their preferred sex since forever. And non trans people have been living as the opposite sex for all sorts of reasons forever.

So it's not really about trans people as a whole using the facilities of their acquired gender - it only applies to the ones that don't pass?

Good luck codifying that in law...

I agree with this. I just don’t see how transmen in women’s spaces is workable in practice if we are to retain sex segregated spaces.

Either you accept most pass and will be indestingasble from the sex they present as, or you don't and male toilets are a danger to most trans women.

Surely it can't be both?

No it's because female spaces need to be kept for females.

A woman who has taken hormones to grow a beard etc and now looks like a man can't be automatically allowed in as otherwise any man could enter and say they were actually female but had been taking testosterone.

It's the same in sport. Women's sport should be for biological females who haven't been taking testosterone.

So you are saying most pass?

I’m not saying most pass. I couldn’t possibly know.

Presumably, however, some pass. Their presence therefore in women’s spaces could create the same discomfort and alarm that the presence of a transwoman or natal male would cause.

My understanding is that the numbers of FtM transpeople are far smaller than the MtF, is that correct?

Honestly I can't understand how it can be ethical in any case for doctors to prescribe cross sex hormones

Either you accept most pass and will be indestingasble from the sex they present as, or you don't and male toilets are a danger to most trans women.

That’s why people argue for a third space.

Presumably, however, some pass. Their presence therefore in women’s spaces could create the same discomfort and alarm that the presence of a transwoman or natal male would cause.

I see, thanks for clarifying. I agree with this.

That’s why people argue for a third space.

This solution isn't particually wanted though from what I've seen.