To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

There's also something rather unpleasant about leveraging women's natural caution as a gotcha to argue for the erosion of their boundaries

It wasn't meant to be a gotcha, it was a genuine question.
I'd never heard of Buck before someone posted upthread and I was genuinely wondering.

Well, when a transman, who looks like Buck Angel, gets challenged in a female toilet, and there's fallout, I'm sure we'll all be informed. At lightning speed.

How do know that limekiwi knows who is a man and important, and who is a woman and not important?

LK calls trans women women, but doesn't offer the same respect to trans men and calls them 'she'.

Hypocrite.

How do know that limekiwi knows who is a man and important, and who is a woman and not important?

I don't know who is or isn't, are you missing my point on purpose?!
And why the straight to insults instead of an actual response?

LK calls trans women women, but doesn't offer the same respect to trans men and calls them 'she

I was going by what everyone else on the thread was using. They'd said Buck said female and posters were using she.
As I said, I hadn't heard of Buck before this thread.
If the pronouns are he, then fair enough of course from now on I'll refer to Buck as he.

They dont have to dress like a woman...thats the point

They don't, you're right but I can see why they do dress so called more "feminine" when out and about as to some it does come down to whether you "pass" well enough or not

would you be comfortable with her in the loos with you?
She looks very much like a man. Please stop it!

Reducing thsi to who goes on which loo is absolutely ficking tiresome. For decades trasnwomen have used femalloos and transmen have used male ones. Nobody knows how the mean and women in thoise loos felt as no fucker ever asked them. However, that was the status quo... we were all polite and nice as long as they made a good shot at 'passing'. So Buck Angel would get thrown out of a female loo because Buck Angel looks like a man. I have no idea if many men would see Buck Angel as a woman becasue I am not a man and haven't asked on.. any male posters care to let us know?

Transwomen rarely pass. Historically women have pretended not to notice, have hidden that initial shiver of aprehension and dutifully played nice. TRAs and Self ID have driven a bus through that unspoken convention. Women now no longer want to play nice as that shiver of apprehension is now fear... not unfounded as numerous recent cases have shown. Self ID opens up a whole new box of frogs and only women are at risk for the changes. So piss of telling us we don't get to have a voice if we aren't agreeing with you.

Now... could we please get our head out of the loo, stop picking on that one space as though it is an absolute gotcha. It isn't, we have had this thrown at us (we being posters in FWR) squillions of times and, frankly, it gets boring!

So, having cleared that up, can we now look at the important issues? Perhaps start with the itemsBertrand has listed... safe spaces, crime stats and sport?

I wish I had proof read that. But my ire was quicker than my typing! Sorry

*would you be comfortable with her in the loos with you?
She looks very much like a man. Please stop it!

To be fair, it was another poster who put the thread onto the route of reducing it down to looks by referring to Karen White.
Are people only allowed to post pictures if it suits their point only?
Posting one of Buck was basically saying the same thing.
As in how would you even know? You wouldn't.

Absolutely, Samphire! We always end up talking about loos and changing rooms. They are issues where it is easy to make concerns look like “pearl clutching hysteria” Whenever anyone manages to keep the conversation on the real. Important issues, suddenly nobody seems to want to keep talking.

Public loos are a favourite battle ground for this kind of debate.

"Any man can walk into a ladies loo at any time anyway"

"How are you going to police who's really a woman? Will everyone have to have their genitals checked at the door?"

"You've probably been sharing loos with trans women for years and don't even know it"

Blah blah blah and other straw man arguments.

But all this focus on toilets deflects from the bigger issue. Yes, technically there's nothing stopping a man walking into a ladies loo at any time - that's the day to day risk level you're used to living with as a (natal) woman anyway. You never assume you're safe from male violence anywhere. But, crucially, self ID INCREASES that risk. If the current day to day threat of male violence is amber, Self ID tips it over into red. That is not acceptable. Even if 'that'll never happen' (and reader, guess what, it already has), just the fact that accommodating trans women's pretensions to womanhood puts women and girls at increased risk of harm should be enough of a reason not to do it.

Find another way.

To be fair, If you mean that then read all that I wrote... and come back and engage with posters honestly.

Are people only allowed to post pictures if it suits their point only? Don't go there. You know full well what the pictures of 'Karen White' show and how they are different from pictures of Buck Angel. Stop it. Be honest.

As in how would you even know? You wouldn't. Well, I would definitely knwo that one of them was not a a woman and, as I have clearly said, in the very post you are answering, Buck Angel would more than likely pass as a man. So, what was your point?

Stop grandstanding, setting up straw men.

Think about the realities of Self ID. Not the pleasant feelings of a deed done well...
Men in womens' safe spaces; men's crimes being reported as female crime; men in women's sport. What do you, you personally LimeKiwi, think of that? A man in your safe space; a man beating you up and you being told you have to refer to him as a woman, believe him to be a woman; a man competing against you as a woman in any walk of life where physical strength would be an asset? How would YOU feel?

You know full well what the pictures of 'Karen White' show and how they are different from pictures of Buck Angel. Stop it. Be honest

I'm not "going" anywhere as you put it, and not what sure you're alluding to saying "be honest".
It was a genuine question.
As in Buck looks very much like a man and Karen looks very much like a woman.
You honestly wouldn't tell. Though people are saying they'd be fine with Buck in their spaces. You wouldn't know.

Well, I would only be happy with Buck in any woman only space with me if I knew she was a trans man.

As in Buck looks very much like a man and Karen looks very much like a woman.
You honestly wouldn't tell. That's what I meant by be honest! 'Karen' really does not look like a woman. He is a transwoman. Buck Angel however, has spent a lot of time 'masculinising'... and so does look very male.

The people saying they would be fine with Buck Angel in their safe spaces are being polite... taking the TMAW a bit too far. They need to be honest with themselves too, stop trying to be so 'right on' in an attempt to be egalitarian. Buck Angel looks like a man. Men may notice a difference, we need a man's pov before we will know this!

There's an enormous difference between posed photos and how a transgender person of either sex looks in real life. I don't find it hard to identify someone's sex in the vast majority of cases, tbh. With transgender women (females) the hips often give it away, along with the general stature.

Let's not get hung up on the pictures... they are just another diversion.. you will note the avoidance of answering questions as asked!

People post pictures of Karen White because that visual image forcibly and shockingly brings home the fact that a male convicted rapist and paedophile was housed in a women's prison, where he assaulted four women.

Posting a picture of Buck Angel because 'toilets' is really not on the same level. So many people seem keen to go on about toilets as a distraction from the really serious issues that the transactivist agenda has created.

I would imagine that Buck would be perfectly happy and safe in the men’s pool.

And on the same basis trans women in the women’s pool surely.

Let's not get hung up on the pictures... they are just another diversion..

If you notice Karen White was posted first, if someone else then posts a picture for looks, it's stop getting hung up on pictures ffs

I posted a picture of Karen Wright, because of the Rohypnol pronoun perception comment.

Pronouns, fake names, photographs, all alter the perception when you are reading about these issues. It's about words and pictures on a screen. Not an animated, sentient, real life experience.

In real life few trans people pass, male or female.

And on the same basis trans women in the women’s pool surely

There is a mixed/unisex pool. Trans women therefore don't need to be 'happy and safe' in the women's pool at the expense of women at all.

This is about territory-pissing, making a point at women's expense, and showing they can dance all over their already too-few and hard-won rights. And unambiguously so.

Power trip. Just a gas lighting power trip ‘yes???!! and what are you gonna do about it???’

Trans women probably would be safer in the women’s pool than the men’s. But that’s because of men. Not women. Nobody talks about expanding the bandwidth of being male.

Maybe gay men would be safer in the women’s pool. Actually, seeing as the vast majority of knife crime is carried out on young men, maybe we met in all the young men under, say 24? We ought to let in the elderly males too.