To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

rather than the current situation where they'd have to put some effort into dressing as a woman?

They dont have to dress like a woman...thats the point

How does a woman dress...cos im currently in jeans and a tee shirt

“If trans people are to use the single sex spaces of their birth gender, surely it would be much easier for a cisman with nefarious intentions to gain access to female spaces by simply claiming to be a transman, rather than the current situation where they'd have to put some effort into dressing as a woman?“

A question and a point. Firstly, do you know if this has ever happened?

And it’s not just about “nefarious intentions”. There are women who can’t, for religious or cultural reasons, share spaces with men, however they identify. And there are women who don’t want to, for many reasons, including simply not wanting to. These women are being completely disregarded in the ongoing discussion.

The only way to make sure that people were only accessing the spaces of their birth gender (and not merely relying on the fact that they pass as the gender they present as) would be to make everyone drop their underwear for inspection as a condition of entry. Frankly, that's just weird.

I agree. So I'm not sure why you're suggesting it.

How does a woman dress...cos im currently in jeans and a tee shirt

One particular person was on the cover of Vanity Fair in a bustier. But said he was no more of a woman now that he’d had an operation, as he’d always been a woman.

In which case, why bother having an operation if it made no difference? And if you’re just as much of a woman when wearing athletic clothes, why wear a bustier?

Hi OP, I wonder about this too. I think the answer is that there’s a large contingent of people here who believe trans women aren’t real women and shouldn’t enjoy the same rights and protections as cis women.

The word woman has always meant 'adult human female' and transwomen are male. So they aren't 'real women' according to the historical meaning of the word.

When people say 'Transwomen are women' they are expressing a belief that the word 'women' means - or should mean - something other than an adult of the female sex.

This has led to 2 serious problems with the way we use language:

1. no universal agreement about the meaning of 'women' and therefore who belongs/doesn't belong in that category.

2. no easy, universally accepted way of referring to people of the female sex.
   This makes it very difficult to discuss the rights, needs, experiences etc of this group of people.

Personally, I find it very offensive to be told that 'transwomen are women' with its implication that they are the same as me - a female person. No one yet has been able to explain clearly what common ground I share with transwomen that justifies us being grouped together. And on the other hand, why I shouldn't be able to group myself with other females, while excluding males.

Are transwomen women? If not, barring them from the women's pool would not be discriminatory. Would it, JAPAB?

No, but that doesn't really matter in the context. We were asked to offer explanations for other people's actions and what motivates them. Just because you disagree with someone's premise, that doesn't mean that they don't believe it. And you can infer relative to that belief whether they have bad motives or are just fighting the good fight against inequality.

So that post wasn't actually question-begging on my part because nothing I said assumed that premise to be "true".

As for the definitions thing, sorry but I long ago peaked getting into them. It is like trying to define what a Scottish person is to someone with an agenda to pick logical holes in everything you say. So leave it as self-ID.

Men being given access to women's single sex spaces and the risks that might cause, the impact on women feeling that they are vulnerable, and the impact on their dignity, is nothing like someone being mischaracterised as Scottish.

And Buck is female, and has written extensively about the damage done to their body as a result of hormones/surgery.

That picture though - if you didn't know what you've just said (I didn't)
as @AvocadosBeforeMortgages said - would you be comfortable with her in the loos with you?
She looks very much like a man.
How on earth would your average person decide or know that she was in fact female?

I would imagine that Buck would be perfectly happy and safe in the men’s pool.

I don't know. This trans stuff is creating a real problem.

One particular person was on the cover of Vanity Fair in a bustier. But said he was no more of a woman now that he’d had an operation, as he’d always been a woman

Maybe she likes wearing things like bustiers? Why does it always come down for some to what clothes you wear that determines? This comment is reminding me a bit of the nails thread the other day.
Other women getting mocked and judged by other women for liking nails or heels or make-up. Buying into the patriarchy, not thinking for themselves, blah blah.
Maybe she's the same as in likes clothes like that? Nothing to do with making you more of a woman (whatever the heck that's supposed to mean.)

And if you’re just as much of a woman when wearing athletic clothes, why wear a bustier?
Because you can be just as much a woman if you're wearing heels and a bustier or tracky bottoms and no makeup.
It's not an either or, you can do both.
Just like a lot of transwomen will do too.

I would imagine that Buck would be perfectly happy and safe in the men’s pool

Maybe she would, bit someone upthread said they'd be perfectly happy in a bathroom with her.
How would you even know that she was female if she came wandering in to go to the toilet?

We are not threatened by nor at risk from people like Buck though. Women are at risk from stronger bodies with willies.

We are not threatened by nor at risk from people like Buck though. Women are at risk from stronger bodies with willies.

Yes, that may be, but you're missing my point - how the heck would you know there was no "willy" under there?!
You wouldn't.
Should everyone drop their trews on arrival?
How else would you know?

The point is that Buck would seek validation by going to the men’s pool, not the woman’s.

Oh good lord. The overwhelming number of transmen, thousands and thousands, are teenage girls.

I can tell the difference between a teenage girl and a man.

The transmen who go to the length of Buck Angel are not a threat, but would not dream of using a woman's facility, either.

And if they did, they would expect to be challenged.

It's a non problem.

The point is that Buck would seek validation by going to the men’s pool, not the woman’s

OK, but YOU know that. If Buck suddenly thought "I'm a woman, why the hell shouldn't I be in the woman's toilets?"
and went in there tomorrow.
How are the women in there supposed to know she's not a bloke?
She looks exactly like one.
People on the board are saying they'd be fine with it though and seeing as she looks exactly like a man I highly doubt it if they didn't know what she wrote/thought.

Buck would be challenged. What's the problem???

It's very odd the number of people who insist on trying to back women into a conceptual corner over their own safety.

The transmen who go to the length of Buck Angel are not a threat, but would not dream of using a woman's facility, either

What, all of them? Every single one? That's a big sweeping generalisation.

Well you can point me to the bit of the ideology that says validation is only necessary for some people.

I like that on MN you can express your thoughts about female born women (or, you know, women) freely. I am not anti trans. I do not believe trans people should be discriminated against.

I strongly believe in the rights of women. The rights we have fought for. And it seems so unfair to me that yet again women's rights are considered weak enough to be eroded.

I'm directly affected - me and my daughters choose to swim in the womens' pond on Hampstead Heath. We do that deliberately. I don't want to swim with be-penised people. That doesn't make me a terf.

Well, If she did want to go into a woman’s pool she (I think that is her preferred pronoun, MNHQ-prepares for deletion if I’m wrong) would of course be challenged. Where’s the problem with that?

Buck isn’t a narcissistic, aggressive man though are they?

Funny how some of the ‘call me ma’ams’ are more of a stereotyped narcissistic aggressive man than Buck is eh?

This tedious trope that there are hordes of transmen frightening women by their masculinity in women's facilities is transparent nonsense.

There's also something rather unpleasant about leveraging women's natural caution as a gotcha to argue for the erosion of their boundaries.

Buck would be challenged. What's the problem???

None, I'm just curious as to how that would go, how you'd go about it.
"Prove you're a woman" type thing.
That's got potential to go wrong if somebody looks particularly male and is female and would take offence.