To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

I don’t think transwomen are women. I think they are transwomen. And I think that is an absolutely fine thing to be.

I did that test on the pronoun article and both took the same time. I think it underestimates people's ability to see things for what they really are yet be able to go along with it. It's like watching people acting. You know they are playing a part but you can suspend disbelief and see them as what they portray not what they actually are. So I have no problem using whatever pronoun people want me to.

I fell the anti-trans rage every time I hear about a trans m-to-f winning in women's sport. This is something that should not be allowed, they were born male and have a natural advantage!

Other than that I feel live and let live.

“Other than that I feel live and let live.”

I agree in everyday life. That’s why I think that existential discussions about the nature of femininity (although I do question why it’s never the nature of masculinity) can wait until we’ve sorted out the crisis points. Crime reporting, safe spaces and sport. Once we’ve found practical ways through that we can go all philosophical.

You know they are playing a part but you can suspend disbelief and see them as what they portray not what they actually are.

I'm sure there are some people who can do this, especially if you are, in fact, aware of what you are reading. You try and make allowances.

Your problem is with people who, firstly, aren't aware of what they're reading, and secondly, who don't take the trouble to deliberately process it through a reality filter.

Like this original shot of Karen White. If you don't know, you may not immediately realise they are male. And even if you do, there is a perception that we all have based on what we know of women.

And then reality kicks in. To me, even though I knew, there was certainly a perception change.

Oh I think you would know!

Once we’ve sorted the crisis management then i’d like to hear from some gay men about their sexual feeling for trans men. In fact, i’d like to head from transmen. But safe spaces, crime reporting and sport before anything else.

@donquixotedelamancha thanks for the info re the Hampstead pools.

It now makes me wonder, if trans women have always used the women’s pool, whether those women who will now be unable to use it were oblivious to this fact? I don’t know if there were any issues in the past with them using it - either trans women or devout Muslim women etc. Was it all harmonious in the past?

Many people on here believe that transwomen are men, regardless of any medical intervention, and should use male spaces, not female ones.

Surely, if your beliefs are consistent, you must also be happy for transmen (who, if you are consistent, are women) to occupy female only spaces, even when they've grown a beard and have had surgery?

I think women are fine with sharing with anyone female. I don't think the surgical penises are very successful anyway by all accounts.

Surely, if your beliefs are consistent, you must also be happy for transmen (who, if you are consistent, are women) to occupy female only spaces, even when they've grown a beard and have had surgery?

Of course I'm happy for transmen to occupy female spaces. They are female.

So you would be perfectly happy for this person to come into your female only changing rooms because they have XX chromosomes and were born and raised female.

How would you establish that this person was a transman and not, in fact, a cisman gaining access to women's spaces by claiming to be a transman?

“Surely, if your beliefs are consistent, you must also be happy for transmen (who, if you are consistent, are women) to occupy female only spaces, even when they've grown a beard and have had surgery?”
Yep. Well, unless it turns out that transmen turn out to have male patterns of sexual and violent crime. In which case then no. But I suspect that transmen would be very vulnerable in male only spaces.

Hi OP, I wonder about this too. I think the answer is that there’s a large contingent of people here who believe trans women aren’t real women and shouldn’t enjoy the same rights and protections as cis women.

You might describe this as anti trans or transphobia. Those who believe the things I mentioned will say they believe in some form of rights for trans persons, just not the same rights as cis women (they will say real women or born women).

In my view, these opinions flourish here because the mods share them. I’ve reported posts for a range of subjects and trollery and usually get a response. No post I’ve ever reported for anti trans attitudes has ever been responded to.

Now again those people above will say that’s because those posts aren’t anti trans but pro women. You can be your own judge of whether or not that is true.

My research tells me that the effect of testosterone is pretty noticeable on women who take it. I would assume that someone like that person would want to use the men's. If the men don't like that, then it's a third space.

Rhi pretty sure 'cis' isn't allowed on MN.

Do you honestly think this hasnt been done many many times before avocado

Ive seen the picture of buck angel on innumerable threads posted by people who think they have an original gotcha

They don't

No post I’ve ever reported for anti trans attitudes has ever been responded to

Ive reported anti trans posts and they have been deleted

AvocadosBeforeMortgages

It really is the height of enough to expect women, who are gender critical, and against transactivism, to beat them over the head with its result, as a gotcha.

That is Buck Angel, btw, who is hugely critical of transactivism. And is called a t**f and a transphobe, as a result.

And Buck is female, and has written extensively about the damage done to their body as a result of hormones/surgery.

'Transphobic' has been bandied about so much it is now meaningless. Being called trasnphobic would not bother me in the least, it has lost its meaning because TRA's scream it at all and sundry, for any minor infraction or dissent from the party line of transwomen re women.

Violent, aggressive, misogynistic TRA's have done a huge disservice to those transexuals (yes I will stick with that given Transgender under Stonewalls watch has expanded to include fetishistic cross dressers) whom rubbed along just fine with women for years, we were polite and accommodating, they were unobtrusive and respectful, no harm no foul.

TRA's have fucked all that and more and more women have a zero tolerance attitude.

rhi

Just for clarification

You think the mods on mumsnet are transphobic

“Hi OP, I wonder about this too. I think the answer is that there’s a large contingent of people here who believe trans women aren’t real women and shouldn’t enjoy the same rights and protections as cis women.“

Rhi- please can you share the thought processes that brought you to the position that transwomen are real women?

Just so we’re clear, I think that transwomen are transwomen, and should enjoy the same rights and protections as any other person. However, I think that there are a few areas where there is a irreconcilable clash of rights and protections, and we need urgently to find a way to navigate that clash.

My point is that transmen are usually visibly indistinguishable from cismen, at least with their underpants on (some transwomen are also equally indistinguishable, but it's harder to achieve). Even other transmen, who are well versed in the subtle signs, often have trouble spotting each other.

If trans people are to use the single sex spaces of their birth gender, surely it would be much easier for a cisman with nefarious intentions to gain access to female spaces by simply claiming to be a transman, rather than the current situation where they'd have to put some effort into dressing as a woman?

The only way to make sure that people were only accessing the spaces of their birth gender (and not merely relying on the fact that they pass as the gender they present as) would be to make everyone drop their underwear for inspection as a condition of entry. Frankly, that's just weird.

Define ‘real woman’ then? Because some chaps seem to think that if you don’t shave your legs or have short hair you aren’t a ‘proper gal’.