to think my friend's opinion is pearl clutching at its finest?!

[sabeeena]

My best friend, let's call her Laura has been single for 3 years. She is in her early 30s. She has recently downloaded Tinder as a means to meet people for casual sex, no strings attached. Laura is a very successful business woman, owns her own house, has no money worries, is very attractive etc.

Laura has always been very open about her love of casual sex and would often tell us about her one night stands.

Our other best friend, lets call her Fiona, always asks for gossip about her dating life (both single mums, so we're interested in carefree stories!!). Laura told us that she was speaking to a man on Tinder and arranging to meet with the purpose of having sex - she has done this numerous times before.

This time, Laura suggested to the man they get a hotel in the city that she lives because:

1. She doesn't want him in her house
2. She doesn't want to be stranded in a city if something goes wrong.

Fiona reacts with "i can't believe you are meeting a guy for sex in a hotel room!! it's so dangerous! it's so cheap!" etc.

Laura explains:

1. It's safer than one night stands were you go back to a guy's house and NO ONE knows where you are, you don't know where you are, and there is no one else around to get help from
2. It's safer than him coming to hers because he might not leave, or similarly harm her in some way with no one else around.
3. The whole point is that she wants to have sex, so she doesn't care what it seems like,

I wouldn't do it myself, but then I've never had a one night stand, but listening to her speak, I am inclined to agree that it is safer than a one night stand in yours or theirs house...

Fiona says it's stupid, but Laura pointed out that Fiona when we were younger got into a man's car after a night out and drove for about an hour to get to his house to have sex ... why's this LESS safe than that?!

Who is BU?

These days, a man would probably accuse you of being a frigid religious fanatic if he’d put himself out to actually buy you dinner and you weren’t up for more

Ah see I'd head that off at the pass by always going dutch

At the risk of sounding like your grandmother, I don’t think DH and I had sex for a couple of months

Not sure of the relevance of that, I didn't sleep with my husband for 6 weeks when we first got together. See? All good!

My questionable morals have just taken an upturn.

A friend of DH back in the day would hit a nightclub walk up to women and say do you fck. Most of the time he was turned down sometimes with a slap but he reckoned he never had to ask more than ten times before he got a hit.*

Which just goes to show there were always lazy-arse "gormless wonders" who sometimes got laid if a woman felt horny. He now has a choice whether to do it in person or on Tinder. Just as women have the choice to turn him down or not.

My DD does tell me a lot. She's 28 so it's not like I have any say over anything and I've always been quite open with my DC. She tells me what drugs she's taken, who she's slept with! So I doubt she'd hide it. Although at 28, she isn't a teenager (though some of her friends are younger) so possibly 18/19 year olds still do go "on the pull".

There's a lot of internalised misogyny on this thread, and quite a few luddites as well.

With respect @AmeriAnn you yourself said you live in an extremely rural area and your grown up son has 'heard stories' about Tinder so I don't think your experience is that reflective of society as a whole, or particularly current in order for you to judge.

@safiya7 and @FormerBabe again, you have said you are older than the person the OP is all about (Laura is early 30's) so perhaps you could be a little more open-minded to how things work for younger women these days and less judgmental about it? If you've never used Tinder how would you know how it works? The facts are that way more men swipe right than swipe left, and vice versa for women, so they are by definition already sifting through the "drongos" as you so flatteringly describe men. Also, many women use apps like Bumble now which only allow men to communicate with women who have already 'accepted' them on the app.

All this misty eye'd rose-tinted 'it was better in my day' attitude from the older MN users is not helpful to the OP. The world has moved on since 1995. We have the internet and that's not going anywhere. Many people have met their life partners online so let's not be so quick to dismiss contemporary ways of meeting people as 'bad' / universally dangerous or 'cheap'.

Being chatted up in a bar can equally lead to a fulfilling conversation and connection, or just as often to a shallow, drunken fumble or worse. It is not a prerequisite for better quality dating, in the same way apps can offer people other ways to look for what they want.

Everything in life is a judgement about safety. Someone in 1995 heading home to a stranger's house didn't have a mobile phone with them, and were presumably in just as much, if not more danger than Laura. Equally, the majority of women who are raped or killed are done so by their husband, partner, or someone they know, in their own home.

It is all about a balance of risk. Laura's got enough to think about in weighing up that decision, and managing her boundaries in a way she feels safe and comfortable with, without having to deal with other women's judgements of her as well.

Fiona is judgemental, she made that clear when she described Laura as ‘cheap’.

Laura sounds like she knows what she’s doing, I agree that a hotel is less risky than taking someone back to your own home.

Yes well I accept things change, but it does all sound pretty hollow and narcissistic these days. I have a 16 year-old DS and a DD who is 14 and I feel depressed about the world they’re going into, I really do

Tinder, internet porn and the whole mentality around this which women have internalised as “equality”, definitely play straight into the hands of misogyny. The world is a far more dangerous and misogynistic place as a result.

The difference between pulling someone in a bar for a shag and choosing someone via Tinder is body language. Yes, you can get pissed and be less able to read body language in person. But presumably we are talking here about a person who doesn't use Dutch courage to pick out a shag.
It's hardly pearl clutching to take a different view on how to go about it or whether to go about it.

I have a 16 year-old DS and a DD who is 14 and I feel depressed about the world they’re going into, I really do

But why? They might want to date, they might not. As long as they’re happy and safe, who cares?!

Safiya7 I may need to borrow those pearls to strangle myself too!
I think as Safiya says, the thing with us "oldies" is that we worry for our own children. It isn't really about being judgy or negative towards other women. Honestly I do feel lucky my children are older and established their outlook on things before porn and internet hook ups became so normalised. I would hate to have young teens now and be worrying about all this stuff.

As I said, my DD does have Tinder but I gather it has moved on a bit from being a "hook up" site to being somewhere where people also meet to date. Plus she's old enough and strong minded enough to not be pressured into anything but I'd have more concerns if she was 17 or 18.

I think the big difference for me in terms of safety is that years ago when I was clubbing, I lived in a town, think somewhere like Cambridge or Southampton, size wise. There were only two actual clubs and everyone knew everyone somehow, be that as friend of a friend etc. So if you hooked up with someone it wasn't a complete stranger that no one knew coming from who knows where. I'm not saying no one ever got attacked but there was a level of safety. I also concede that it might not be the same in somewhere like London. Although friends of my age who grew up in London say they still tended to frequent places local to them.

My rapist told me his name, where he lived, what job he did. But it was all lies (the police later informed me of that). So I suppose that would be my one bit of advice to Laura, to lessen the risk somewhat, is not to meet anyone she hasn't checked out elsewhere, say Linkedin, FB etc. It won't eliminate the risk but at least she will know the person is who they say they are.

She has checked out his credentials and they seem legitimate. Instagram is linked to the tinder app, and his has a verified blue tick (he is well known in some circles, I wouldn't say famous, but known if you followed that sort of thing - I admit I didn't know who he was). She has also now got his Facebook and phone number.

I am astounded by the level of comments about the morality of this - I have said numerous times that is not the point of this thread. I am asking about safety and WHY the hotel is MORE dangerous than a one-night stand as my other friend said!

I am still to find a single argument which refutes it ...

I still think it is safer than a one night stand. She has been able to check out he is legit who he says he is, he's booked a room in a hotel of her choosing, she has asked for his number and personal facebook, which he has given... you wouldn't get that on a night out.

I understand sometimes awful things happen - the stories of rape and murder are terrifying, but, are they actually more likely to happen in a hotel, or is it just more reported in this way as it happens in a public domain? there must be millions of meetups which don't end in that.

having sex with any man is risky - the only person I have ever been raped by was a partner - repeatedly. I have done pretty foolish things like sleeping in beds with strangers after a night out and it didn't end in anything bad.

So, my AIBU again is: Is it U to assume a hotel is MORE dangerous than a one night stand?

Plus she's old enough and strong minded enough to not be pressured into anything but I'd have more concerns if she was 17 or 18.

My friend is a divorcee in her 30s! She feels absolutely no pressure at all in my eyes.

Tinder, internet porn and the whole mentality around this which women have internalised as “equality”, definitely play straight into the hands of misogyny. The world is a far more dangerous and misogynistic place as a result.

I think you have internalised women wanting sex as something bad (which is the classic misogynist view), and therefore think that anyone who would willing have "cheap" sex is a product of the misogynistic regime! women can and do enjoy sex, and not just in a relationship. the female sex toy industry is huge, isn't that because sex for female pleasure has become more acceptable?

Millions of women match with women and have causal sex - in fact, during my younger days there was clubs specifically in my area where lesbians would go, walk up to each other and fuck in the toilets. Is this sexuality freedom a result of misogyny? or does that only work when a dick is involved?

dating has certainly changed since I was a teen (I am slightly older than my friend), but it doesn't scare me - it's the same level of sexuality that was present when I was young, but now, it's just that on the internet.

In that case then I think she has taken every step she can to make it as safe as it can be. So yes I think a hotel is less risky than her own home.

“I think you have internalised women wanting sex as something bad (which is the classic misogynist view)”

No, not bad at all. I just think there are certain ways of going about it (for men and women).

I also think that if you’ve internalised that sex is nothing more than a physical function and men are just “bodies”

For me personally it isn't wholly about casual sex and the morality of it. I have had a few one stands in my life. What i struggle with now is men expecting me to change who I am to fit in with the current "trends" for want of a better word. To agree to sexual acts that I don't want to do, to change myself to be "visually pleasing" to them. It's actually one of the main reasons I have just totally given up now. As the woman I am now I can just say no thanks. At 18 I probably would have given into the pressure eventually. Especially as most men do expect things now. This is why people worry for their daughters. This is why some of us dont think today's young women are as empowered as they think they are. The meeting solely for sex thing is just a part of that. It isnt a judgement on Laura or anyone else. Well certainly not by me. But those of us who are older can see the difference between men back then and men now and it is sad and it isn't empowering to women.

(Sorry posted too quick) - I think the above is equally misogynistic (potentially).

Asta - I completely agree and I think it’s interesting (though not surprising) that as women have made some progress in terms of the public sphere and working environments, porn culture has insidiously infiltrated dating expectations and the whole collective psyche around sexual norms. As usual, women can’t dictate equality on our own terms. In mimicking men’s mentality, we’re just fitting into another misogyny-driven mould but trying to convince ourselves this is empowerment. That’s how I see it anyway.

As usual, women can’t dictate equality on our own terms. In mimicking men’s mentality, we’re just fitting into another misogyny-driven mould but trying to convince ourselves this is empowerment. That’s how I see it anyway

Actually I can dictate my own equality. That doesn’t mean there aren’t more widespread issues in society as a whole, but me having casual sex isn’t fitting into any mould but my own! It’s only that I’m older I’ve come to understand that it’s acceptable.

Society has a long way to go before they accept that.

But then I’m a single mother who doesn’t want a relationship ever, so I’m already lowest of the low

Didn’t you say you had a DH Jacques?

Didn’t you say you had a DH Jacques?

Yes. Had. Past tense.

Married for 14 years, been divorced 5.

I’ll dig out the scarlet letter.

Oh ok, I was wondering how you were managing to have a DH and a FWB!

Laura sounds like she is more than capable of looking after herself and assessing her own situations. You go girl, enjoy your sausage! 😃

Jacques I think from another thread I remember you saying you had a FWB But, from what I remember it sounded like he was a decent guy who treats you with respect. That's a whole lot different to some of the men I'm talking about. A decent FWB arrangement is a two way thing. I have spoken online to men who suggested they wanted that but what they actually meant was they wanted to call on me only when they wanted to! And they wanted to make sure that they were pleasured in the way they wanted without a thought to what would give me pleasure. It was very clear from the things they said. They wanted a free prostitute not an FWB

Jacques I think from another thread I remember you saying you had a FWB But, from what I remember it sounded like he was a decent guy who treats you with respect. That's a whole lot different to some of the men I'm talking about

I do.

We’re not exclusive. That would be dating.