To ask brexiteers to explain to me why they want us to leave the EU?

[ethelfleda]

I have a totally open mind here. I did vote remain but I genuinely want to know why people think that leaving the EU is a good thing?
I’m not being goady - I actually want people to convince me that Brexit is a good thing so I don’t feel so terrified of what’s to come!
So what is it about the EU that’s bad for us? What will we achieve by leaving?

But thats fine lime

I appreciate that a lot of people who voted reman and leave obviously enjoy all the fighting and insults and dont want to change

my pleas for moderation have fallen on mainly deaf ears for about 3 years now...you’d think id be used to it

My pile ons?

Sorry, wasn't meant to be aimed at you, pile ons in general at the threads - was just pointing the pile ons/attacks out as you didn't seem to realise that there were any.
Just started picking at the wording instead and that it was some people, not all.
Is it the new NAMALT?
NARALT (Not all Remainers are Like That) lol

It could well do holiday in the immediate term (food prices have increased already) however I think it might well also balance out and then wages will outstrip the prices.

Farmer's subsidies can still be paid by the UK govt and would be worth more as the 'subsidy money' won't have to go through so many layers of administration before it is paid. Currently the money is paid to the EU goes through admin there then is repaid to the UK (goes through lots more admin here) then paid to the Farmer.

Admin costs money so paying the subsidy as directly as possible to the Farmer is much more cost-effective.

I voted remain in 2016 but I'm now a leaver. Not because I agree with anything that side has to say but because I see it as the best option for achieving independence for Scotland.

If we leave and everything is fantastic and we find ourselves in a land of milk and honey then great. If it goes tits up, which imo is more likely, then I think we'll see a big increase in support for independence in Scotland and Westminster will have no legitimate argument against allowing another referendum.

It's a win win for me, although that may be because I know if things get really shit I can fuck off elsewhere. Dunno how I'd feel if I was stuck here.

was just pointing the pile ons/attacks out as you didn't seem to realise that there were any

you still making bollocks up?

In the nicest possible way im not going to post further on this thread because, as many others have said, this has been done many times before

More interesting question: why would you want to stay in it?

My primary concern is that the troika is fueling a future debt/banking crisis based upon what is, at best, naivete and hopeful thinking and, at worst, cynical exploitation in the name of greater short term profits for ECB members. Putting a financial gap between us and Europe, while potentially costly in the short term will insulate us from a cataclysm which, at the European level, will make 2008 look like a picnic.

I'm not "making bollocks up"
Your post read like you didn't see any as you just started saying "it's only some people"

Buccanarab, do you believe that Scotland would be able to enter the EU quickly enough that the benefits you see in membership would be able to overpower the spending deficit?

@Lizzie48
"SB1189 if you’re happy with a united Ireland and an independent Scotland, which may well work out for the best (the break up of the former Czechoslobakia into the Czech Republic and Slovakia worked out fine), then voting leave may well have made sense."

"But I bet most Brexiteers (supporters of Farage and Tory Eurosceptics) won’t be happy with the idea. Neither would the DUP, obviously. They should be careful what they wish for."
I'm surprised you would think most Brexiteers wouldn't be happy if that happened.
I am a Tory Eurosceptic (who voted for the Brexit party in the European Election) and would be happy if Ireland wanted to unite and/or Scotland gained independence if the majority of people in those countries wished to do so.
Same issue as with The Falklands.

The EU will not be falling all over itself to admit an independent Scotland when it is not propped up by the UK cash cow.

LimeKiwi

I Know that Rufusthebewilderedreindeer can defend herself but she is one of the better posters on these threads as she debates the points and doesn't take part in the name calling.

We can set our own levels of Sales Tax/VAT - I would hope to see more zero-rated goods and an overall reduction in the Basic Rate (maybe reduce from 20% to 15%) - the cost offset by the reduction in admin/bureacracy in the current money-go-round.

More interesting question: why would you want to stay in it?

Because we were part of a big trading block that could tell huge companies and big countries to do what we wanted not have to capitulate to their demands.

because poor regions like I live in got EU funding - not so sure they will from British Government.

because a lot of regulation was done via EU and untangling 40 year of that will take a lot of time and money – and leaving may well mean border checks which will impact import and exports.

Because the Irish border – I remember the IRA mainland bombings and frankly having peace there is better for everyone.

Because we had a voice in Eu that was fairly loud and can and did veto things and move things our way – that’s gone.

Because leaving was always going to be messy and have a negative impact on our economy and with a mortgage to pay and kids to feed that matters to me.

because main reason we were asked was due to internal politics in Tory party rather than overwhelming idea from parliament that we'd be better out.

that's off the top of my head.

@Gronky

I'm not concerned about our EU membership, the goal is independence. The "deficit" is entirely fictional, and until we gain independence we can't know what it will be. The source of Scotland’s current notional deficit arises from our “allocation” of UK overheads, including defence and interest on the national debt. Any actual deficit emerging from an independent Scotland would depend on the outcome of the divorce negotiations, and the new domestic taxation regime decided by Holyrood.

For example if an independent Scotland decided slapped a £10 per barrel tax on oil the current "deficit" would be halfed in a stroke.

llama you're sounding a lot like vulpe/smallfox yourself.

For example if an independent Scotland decided slapped a £10 per barrel tax on oil the current "deficit" would be halfed in a stroke.

That's a little like a corner shop owner planning to buy a new car by selling their Freddos for £2 each.

@bigKiteFlying
So, the Eu becomes/is a super power then? That's marvellous for the third world who can't get a look in selling their produce. Very left.

Hear, hear! Bigkiteflying
I think probably one of the saddest part of this whole debacle is the fact that we have given up our position as a strong EU member with a lot of power (look at our voting record- we almost always got what we wanted) to be a country which will be totally insignificant on the world stage. Yey sovereignty!

It’s called the Conservative and Unionist Party officially, though it might be time to drop that part if it’s not what the Tories believe anymore? I’d be very interested to know, actually.

Certainly the DUP would feel very betrayed at having backed the Tory party in voting to leave.

It can be argued that the EU have gotten too political and are focusing too hard on everybody integrating (ie poking their nose into national governments business) rather than facilitating trade. Europe is a very diverse contingent - lots of different cultures/religions/ways of living and many take exception with idea of regulations being made so centrally by people not from their country. I find it hard to believe that people can’t see why others might feel like we don’t have enough influence in the EU - e.g when David Cameron requested concessions for the benefit of the UK and was denied - to implement measures that would benefit the UK. There is no denying that leaving means the EU cannot ‘interfere’ in our affairs anymore. Stay and reform would have been much better IMO (ie the EU focus on broad things like trade and reduces the meddling in things where different nations fundamentally disagree) but to some people that was just never gunna happen.

ALSO it’s super easy for people who mass immigration benefits/doesn’t affect to bin off the concerns of those that it negatively affects by calling them racist/xenophobic or whatever. When Merkel invited all the asylum seekers into Germany FoM meant that she was inviting them into the whole of Europe too, without the consent of other member nations. When many communities and people have to deal with pressure of their services and infrastructure as it is, this was a step too far, provoking the thought that maybe the EU isn’t all that for the UK.

I think Leave voting is a response to these issues where dialogue has just been ignored/shut down and now people feel that there’s no other alternative if they want to be listened to.

Not really, the UK government receives something like $21 per barrel, while the Norwegian government receives around $48 and they seem to be doing fine. There's clearly scope to increase the revenue recieved from oil, something an independence Scotland could do itself.

Tbh the economic arguments don't make any difference to me, even if become independent would 100% result in Scotland being worse off I'd still vote for it. I just hate being part of a "union" where our views count for nothing.
As things stand you could have every single person in Scotland vote one way and all it would take to nullify our voice is for 9.9% of England to vote the other way.

the cost offset by the reduction in admin/bureacracy in the current money-go-round.

That is the biggest fallacy of all. The cost of setting up independent bodies previously jointly funded as part of the EU 28 will far far outweigh any saving. Have you heard of economies of scale?

Not a fallacy at all - the admin and govt departments already exist in the UK. And yes I have heard of economies of scale before.

Tbh the economic arguments don't make any difference to me, even if become independent would 100% result in Scotland being worse off I'd still vote for it

So you can understand then why some people voted for Brexit then?