To ask brexiteers to explain to me why they want us to leave the EU?

[ethelfleda]

I have a totally open mind here. I did vote remain but I genuinely want to know why people think that leaving the EU is a good thing?
I’m not being goady - I actually want people to convince me that Brexit is a good thing so I don’t feel so terrified of what’s to come!
So what is it about the EU that’s bad for us? What will we achieve by leaving?

So, the Eu becomes/is a super power then? That's marvellous for the third world who can't get a look in selling their produce. Very left.

The biggest thing stopping this was the UK government being part of the EU - we had allies in many of the eastern bloc newly joined counties – us leaving has weaken the arguments against greater unity.

I’m also not sure why the “very left” thing – I’m a floating voter more centrist than left or right – (slight leaning left but still mainly in center) so sceaming left or right at me is pointless.

I would like to know how they, voters to Leave, thought it would be achieved. Did they think that they would wake up the next day to a brave new world? Did they know anything about the process of leaving? Even Farago had no idea, he wasn't concerned about how it would be achieved, his interest was then and certainly is now self-glorification.

@time4chocolate

Of course, I've never said I don't understand why people voted for Brexit (even said I now want to leave in my first post). The difference is I'll explain why I hold these views and not go in a huff when someone challenges me on them.

I've asked a few leave voters about this, and ech one has come back with a diferent reason. I was thinking about this the other day, and I suspect this is the reason why Brexit has not got very far.
Remainers generally just want things to stay as they are, so only one option.
Leavers all want something different, hence why it has been so difficult to get an agreement of any kind between them, as no-one seems willing to compromise on their personal position.

I think this was a protest vote more in exasperation and disgust at the conservatives and labour who fudged every time.

Anyone watching the results overseas will see we are not the only country fed up with incumbent politicians, parties.

*HateIsNotGood

We can set our own levels of Sales Tax/VAT - I would hope to see more zero-rated goods and an overall reduction in the Basic Rate (maybe reduce from 20% to 15%) - the cost offset by the reduction in admin/bureacracy in the current money-go-round.*

The UK government set the standard rate of VAT at 20%, not the EU. So there's no reason to think it would go back down if we leave. If you think more will be zero rated, I'd think again. VAT is a huge revenue raiser and the economic forecasts are not looking like taxes will be going down much in the near future.

I haven't read the whole thread, but love the way Leavers won't explain their reasons, and that's the fault of the Remainders .

Just like the Tories always blame everything they can't explain on Corbyn.

You don't do yourselves any favours.

the "debate" on mumsnet about Brexit has always been about insults. The rationally argued and supported debate that used to exist on this site has long vanished.

There are many reasons to be concerned about the EU and the direction in which it was heading. Farming and fishing policies have been a disaster (yes there are subsidies to farmers but if you understood who claims and why you might understand the concerns). The European Parliament, which is elected, can not propose legislation, that is the job of the (unelected) Commission. Governments have some control over who is appointed but once the body has been chosen, none of its members are accountable to the British government or to elected representatives in the European Parliament.

The euro has not been beneficial and there will be increasing pressure on Britain to join. Europe wants a common welfare and tax system - are you happy for those things to be determined elsewhere?

Those (IME very few) remainers who have actually read the white paper on the future of Europe have sometimes suggested it should not be discussed for fear of "driving people over to the dark side" ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/white_paper_on_the_future_of_europe_en.pdf

There are many remain voters who have very little idea of what they actually voted for.

Mumsnet is not the place to try and understand both sides of the debate, most of those who visit these threads have no desire to do so. Read the white paper, read things like this www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/23/eu-in-state-of-denial-over-destructive-impact-of-farming-on-wildlife.

If there was more honesty about what is wrong with the EU - and what is/ has been the fault of the UK government - then it might have been possible to debate how the concerns could be dealt with while staying in the EU. If we ever get a second referendum or a general election there will still be a divided country unless the idiots stop the slanging matches, start accepting that the EU is not perfect - and talk about how to deal with concerns. Corbyn has tried to do a bit of that with concerns about immigration and workers rights but the media ignores that and anyway he is not likely to be in a position to deliver. The Tories wont do that because they want out at any cost. Why are Tories so keen - perhaps ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/company-tax/anti-tax-avoidance-package/anti-tax-avoidance-directive_en

The Welsh vote is a protest at 20 years of labour rule, they have stuck up two fingers at Plaid, conservatives, lib dems. In that time our NHS has suffered terribly. Our schools are now on the cut budget lists. Our primary has the begging bowl out even more this year. Teaching assistant posts cut. Hospitals in special measures for four years wtf.

Labour in Wales feel smug and unassailable. One politician committed suicide, the cover up there is not even covert.

(Also, I'm curious: what do you think should be zero rated that currently is not, and what would be the overriding policy rationale? The EU has agreed already to change the law so that VAT on women's sanitary products can be removed)

The UK has already implemented the anti tax avoidance directive. Domestic legislation required few changes because we already had a general anti abuse rule, a rule against hybrid mismatches, controlled foreign companies rules and an interest limitation. I don't think the Conservatives are seeking to undo any of this (they did a lot of it)

Maybe so Tea but was the rise of the Basic Rate to account for the lower rates the UK 'bargained' with the EU on some items.

Lower VAT and more exempt goods and services would be something that could be something that we can pressure our own govts on in the post-Brexit years.

Sticking with the OP's original request another positive is that for no longer can our government(s) hide behind our EU membership, shrug their shoulders and say "nuffink we can do mate, our hands are tied, it's not us it's them".

We will be able to hold our own government to greater account - and vote them out when they don't do what the majority of the electorate want. As they're now finding out.

Those (IME very few) remainers who have actually read the white paper on the future of Europe have sometimes suggested it should not be discussed for fear of "driving people over to the dark side"

Why? As an EU critical remainer, I find it heartening in some respects. It recognises the concerns and presents a number of scenarios for progressing the Union, including restricting policy areas. It's a discussion paper prompted by recognition that there is an issue with popular perception of and trust in the EU. If they could move away from ever closer union then I think more people would turn back to recognising that the EU often makes good law and allows Member States to benefit from economies of scale and collective bargaining power.

You don't do yourselves any favours.

People who voted Remain and react like the angryllama upthread don't do themselves any favours - you say you haven't read the thread.
If you do you might see why people aren't.
I've seen Brexit threads before. There's a whole board full of them.
People did use to engage. It's the "I'm all ears" posters that make it impossible for reasoned discussion.
Think it was silverysurfer upthread who said they used to - yep, have seen that poster have a go before, reasonably and engaging only for as soon as you do it descends into mud slinging and personal insults again.
So try reading the thread, you might see a bit more clearly. Or not

Maybe so Tea but was the rise of the Basic Rate to account for the lower rates the UK 'bargained' with the EU on some items.

No, it was a revenue raising measure. It was raised from 15% to 17.5% to offset reductions in the community charge. It was then reduced temporarily to 15% during the financial crisis then reverted back to 17.5%. It was then increased to 20% to raise revenue. What items are you talking about that we have got lower rates on?

If there was more honesty about what is wrong with the EU - and what is/ has been the fault of the UK government - then it might have been possible to debate how the concerns could be dealt with while staying in the EU

I would have preferred this - the Eu isn't perfect by any means.

Just listening to world at one - the journalists think the Eu result means the Tory’s are much more likely to choose a hard liner who is happy to leave despite economy with no deal to out flank Farage.

I’ve heard Heseltine pointing out again and again 5 million conservative voters voted remain – not sure of his source – but it doesn’t appear anyone listening.

I think even in increasingly unlikely event of staying - we'd have a lot less influence.

I did get very annoyed with all the talk of 50 years time it will all be great talk that was around a while ago – chances are I’ll be dead and it’s nearly all my DC working lives and they haven’t left school yet.

What leaving means to leavers has actually changed over the last 3 years. Its gone from a Norway style deal to a party advocating no deal. So what leavers previously wanted has now changed. Saying you wanted leave at any cost doesn't cut it because getting a deal isn't "any cost", no deal (not advocated during the referendum) is scorched earth policy. I don't know how anyone other than disaster capitalists can support that.

I'm a remainer who does not like the EU, but I see it as the least bad option looking at the world as it is now ...

Pre Brexit the UK has a veto, and members of various EU institutions and can effect the workings to some extent. Outside we just have to obey the rules required for trading with the EU, rules we no longer can influence...

Our population/natural resources are relatively small in a world dominated by leviathans like the USA, China, Russia etc. As a large part of another leviathan (the EU) we can help steer it, on the outside we can do sod all.

Ignoring macro political theories like this, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar... Good Friday agreement/peace process... messy, don't know enough to comment but always thought it would be messy- seems I'm right.

With regards to VAT - pretty much rip it up and start again - it's overly complex and too many business hours are spent on it as well as tax-pounds spent on it's administration and of course too many hard-earned pounds spent on it too. It needs to be more transparent and simplified.

Can't do that whilst we're in the EU.

Sticking with the OP's original request another positive is that for no longer can our government(s) hide behind our EU membership, shrug their shoulders and say "nuffink we can do mate, our hands are tied, it's not us it's them"

I do agree that this is perversely a positive - but it's a bit sad that our politicians blame the EU for things that are often completely domestic issues and gloss over the positives of the EU (e.g. consumer friendly, worker friendly and environmentally friendly laws), and the fix is to leave the EU while those issues remain. The EU has become a bogeyman for domestic politicians to point to when asked difficult questions.

HateIsNotGood, what's not transparent about VAT? It's a good tax in many ways. It generates lots of revenue and is almost impossible to avoid.

but equally friende of theirs (Both Afghan immigrant doctors) also voted to leave so I really don’t think everybody who voted did so on rave issues

What does this mean? That racism is the exclusive domain of white people?

Odd.

I voted remain but I'm not sure I would do again. I see many positives of being in the EU but being run by the European Parliament in it's current morph is not one of them.

Also leaving aside the conspiracy theories that Farage and certain other super rich would like an English speaking tax haven with weak labour laws and some useful assets to play with - would be less concerned if there were a strong left wing opposition but the prospect of a Gove, Rabb or Johnson (or Farage) led government unrestrained by EU laws is frankly terrifying- Parliament is supreme after so!

Thanks for your input. Very helpful.