To ask brexiteers to explain to me why they want us to leave the EU?

[ethelfleda]

I have a totally open mind here. I did vote remain but I genuinely want to know why people think that leaving the EU is a good thing?
I’m not being goady - I actually want people to convince me that Brexit is a good thing so I don’t feel so terrified of what’s to come!
So what is it about the EU that’s bad for us? What will we achieve by leaving?

*I know 7 people who voted Leave and they are all racist. This includes family.

My vote to Remain was based on a choice between status quo and uncertainty.*

The first statement is a reflection (unfortunately) on the people you 'know' rather than enabling a generalisation that all Leavers are racist.

The second statement assumes that remaining in the EU = certainty.

Really?

I feel that the EU has become a huge organisation. There are huge amounts of expenditure supporting the MEP's, and because it is so huge decision making is ponderous. I object thoroughly to decisions about our lives being made by politicians unelected by us. The finances of the EU have not balanced for some 20 years, nor is any effort to do so. If you visit Brussels it irritates me to see the streets of restaurants ( with gas heaters heating the open air) stuffed full of staff and workers from the gigantic EU organisation. I object to the decamping of the whole EU Parliament to Strasbourg once a month for 4 days. Effectively just to keep the French happy. In these days of climate change just why do they do it? I hate how they legislate for us but every country has a different criteria.
What makes me incredulous is Scotland who want to escape from the clutches of a UK Parliament but are happy to align themselves with the EU.
I think the talk of an EU army is quite ridiculous, what is NATO for, it has been around for 70 years and kept the peace effectively in that time.
This is why I voted leave.

Anyway, the OP wanted some reasons why people voted leave. I provided my husband's. I presume they were sound and valid reasons since nobody has derided them or called me (him) fascist scum. Then again, as a Muslim immigrant with a PhD and an IQ which is significantly higher than mine (remainer!) he's probably not the kind of leaver you want to read about in the little echo chamber of spite that these threads inevitably turn into.

Mumsnet remainers - read and digest.

Yes, it’s a brave leaver who ventures onto the Westminstenders thread!

*I know 7 people who voted Leave and they are all racist. This includes family.’

It probably is true that all racists voted leave, because Nigel Farage shamelessly courted their vote, and maybe it is true of your family members. It’s clearly not true to take from that that leave voters are necessarily racist, see the post quoted by Fortunatelynot.

Of course I can google Bundy but I would have wanted to be linked were anti Semitic statements from Remainer in here, because that’s what I read the post to be about.

I don’t think Leavers have been treated with disdain, more of a incredulity if anything.

Sorry I might have misread the post.

Do agree about Diane Abbott though.

Wilfully irresponsible.

Sorry, but that does describe Leavers, especially No. Deal Leavers rather well.

Lizzie48

It probably is true that all racists voted leave

So you discount the racists that voted remain because they want cheap labour because "probably" all racists voted leave.

Its a very short sighted view.

• The first statement is a reflection (unfortunately) on the people you 'know' rather than enabling a generalisation that all Leavers are racist.

The second statement assumes that remaining in the EU = certainty.

Really?*

Re the first statement, I agree though I don't know any racists outside of those 7 people. Actually it's 8 people. The 8th is my ex husband who is from mainland Europe and has seen a wave of islamaphobia in his birth country, and supports it. He qualifies to called racist and thick. He didn't think of the consequences for him or his dual nationality children under the 2003 rules of that country.

Remaining in the EU provides more certainty than leaving it.

I'm posting based on my own personal experience of leave voters. None of them expressed a fear of a federal superstate but that's a valid concern expressed by other posters.

Clavinova I'd refer you to the actual voting in the elections where only 10% of the country voted for BP. More people signed the revoke petition this year than voted BP. Makes Humphrys a bit of a liar?

Okay, I exaggerated. I don’t personally know any racists who voted remain but yes, you have a point there. I should have said that the vast majority of vocal racists (in the BNP and UKIP etc.) voted leave (which I do think is true), it doesn’t mean that all those who voted leave are racist. That assumption is clearly wrong.

Yes, but what is frustrating is that the proverbial plumber you are talking about, and many others like him cannot see with the economy in difficulty because of Brexit their liv s will get even worse.

Lower incomes, even fewer jobs for him, no money for social benefits and services, decline of the health services and do on.

What frustrates me is they people are unable or unwilling to open their eyes to that.

Cheap labour here to stay but not because of the EU, it’s because big business gets away with it. The only not thing that will change is where it will come from.

I voted Remain. I have no particular political ideology. I don't think the Eu is perfect.

But we have a disabled child and the existing cuts to services have shown how things are cut to the bone and the impact that has had on our child alone.

If a leaver could show me that they'd be no economic impact of leaving NOW (and in the future) I'd vote any which way. We (my family) just can't afford for things to get worse - and services for children and the vulnerable are generally hardest hit following an economic shock.

Maybe money is a bad argument for some - independence/sovereignty means more - but when you are relying on public services you don't get to be quite so high minded.

I would like to approach explaining why I voted leave by countering some remain arguments if I may:

Membership of the EU protects workers rights?: we rented a very cheap flat to save to buy a house. £450 a month. When we rented it it was full of bunk beds because it was being used by many European workers (let's say 8 _ paying a little over £50 each a month then) to live/work/and in all likelihood send the vast majority of their earnings to their home countries. How can a British worker compete with this cost of living for labour and provide their family with any quality of life?

Wanting to end free movement is racist?: I would like to be able to prevent people convicted of violent crime from entering our country (it matters not what colour or origin the person has). I am well aware we have our own violent criminals and I wouldn't blame any country for refusing them entry into their countries either.

I think remain are hypocritical in respect of racism/free movement _ I don't hear them campaigning for free movement from India/Africa or anywhere else. Why is it ok to restrict movement from these countries but not others? I am quite happy to see an increase in people moving to the UK from India, Africa or wherever if they bring the skills we need. I don't see why we need to treat people from Europe differently to the rest of the world.
Democracy: even remained seem to accept that we don't want a European super state and ever closer union. Why do we spend time considering political parties views and who to vote for when they can't do anything if the EU considers it incompatible with European law. Would remainers be happy to throw in the towel, scrap our political system and just accept that we are governed by Europe?

If the EU were really democratic and governed by consent would they make it so bloody difficult for people to leave the club?

I don’t think Leavers have been treated with disdain

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha - hilarious.

UK unemployment is lower than it was at the time of the vote, the economy is growing (albeit slowly) and we are still the 5th (?) largest economy in the world.

Yes, because we haven’t left yet.

One major conundrum is that Workers Rights and Environmental standards are often cited as reasons not to leave the EU.

At the same time we are told that the EU doesn't make us do anything we don't wish to.

You can't have it both ways - either the EU is overriding our own elected government in some areas and forcing it to do things it otherwise wouldn't - in which case it's fine as long as it's going "your" way - or it's not in which case there is no benefit anyway.

@SunniDay As a remainer, here is what I would say about the points you raised:

1. and 2) That is not fair but is part of a larger problem with low wages and overcrowding of accommodation which could be addressed by our existing laws but the government has chosen not to. Re: FOM I fail to see why making the situation bad for everybody is an improvement. The government was allowed within EU rules to limit the number of EU citizens coming to the UK by only allowing those with work to stay - other countries did this. Not doing this is really a failure of the government, not the EU! I do actually think it is better for us to have FOM with our closest neighbours. FOM is actually economically a boost to the economy overall (although I can see it might not seem like that if you are in an area with lots of EU migrants). Loss of FOM has been lauded as a great victory by May but actually it puts our own citizens at a great disadvantage globally and will be disastrous for universities and the NHS.

2. This is something I see again and again and I really don't understand it. We are not governed by Europe! If we are part of the EU WE ARE PART OF MAKING THE RULES. There is this leaver narrative that is toxic that we don't have a say in things imposed on us by Brussells. In fact we have (had!) a big say. We almost never failed to get our own way - far more than many other countries which is why they find it really perplexing that we are throwing our toys out of the pram!

MrPan
You can't have it both ways - you are highlighting the fact that only 6 million people signed the Revoke Petition with minimal effort involved - using your logic, most of the country want to leave the EU.