To ask brexiteers to explain to me why they want us to leave the EU?

[ethelfleda]

I have a totally open mind here. I did vote remain but I genuinely want to know why people think that leaving the EU is a good thing?
I’m not being goady - I actually want people to convince me that Brexit is a good thing so I don’t feel so terrified of what’s to come!
So what is it about the EU that’s bad for us? What will we achieve by leaving?

It’s quite funny this. Now the leavers have retreated to “ well we could tell you why and we’ve told you lots of times but you’re all nasty and horrible so we won’t.” Face it, dipshits - you got bubkes. We know it and we’ve always known it. And you’d be funny if you weren’t fucking it up for the rest of us.

Jesus, Llama, can you not see the funny bit is that you honestly cannot see that you and your reaction is exactly why you don't get an answer?
It'd be comical if it wasn't so sad.
Read what you wrote again - the first bit saying "now the leavers have retreated to we've told you loads of times but you're nasty so we won't" then the peachy next sentence you fling out making their exact bloody point lol.
You clearly do not want to listen, it's farcical.

I was talking to a lady I know about this. She's in her 70's, life long Labour voter, and voted leave. She remembers the Britain of her youth when their industry and farming were both thriving and there were ample jobs and opportunities. She wants to get back to this. I'm a remain voter, and don't believe this will be possible in today's world, but I do see where she's coming from and can see how her experiences have shaped her views. I think many people of this generation probably feel the same.

All of these intelligent and educated leave voters with their top secret reasons for leaving that are entirely hidden from the public discourse. How incredibly convenient.

Who said they're hidden? Try the Brexit board, there's plenty of threads to be going on with there to see what happens when people answer.

Because originally they were promised the moon on a stick and also the leave vote was a general protest vote by certain sections in poorer areas of the country. Now they are angry because they feel that their vote was not respected and that democracy has been/will be undermined if we don't leave. At least that's what I believe.

This is it in a nutshell.

The most bizarre thing is that the narrative around leave never asked people to think about what they wanted instead of EU membership.

What kind of position should we have in the world, what kind of relationship with EU and other countries, what kind of economic model?

Because obviously you can vote leave because you don’t like something about the EU (see Federalism, the army point mentioned above).

But once out, then what? Who are our allies and trading partners for starters? There’s this bizarre assumption that we can act as a stand alone country. That’s a profound lack of understanding around how the world works.

So while the ‘i don’t want a European army’ sounds plausible on the surface, it has to be considered in the light of alternatives. I don’t want to be Russia/China/USA’s bitch either.

Same with trade. If we have issues with their trade laws, what alternatives have leavers looked into? The much vaunted WTO has lots of its own laws that need to be adhered to.

Basically leaving the EU doesn’t happen in a vacuum. I don’t think many leavers truly get this.

Is the brexit board of mumsnet the public discourse now?

Dipshits???!!!!
ODFOD!!!

I voted remain and I'm starting to think that there are a lot of thick remain voters out there looking at some of the oh-so-funny insults on the thread Grow up and stop hijacking the OP's thread perhaps? Or start your own sniggering into your hands thing with your like-'minded' chums.

Being in the EU has definitely benefited some sections more than others and, as was witnessed by watching David Cameron coming back from discussions with 'very little', it's not good, is it? That result is what was heavily media-ised, nothing about what good the EU does for the country so there are many that we could blame - politicians (being allowed to lie time and again), media being allowed to skew the news (shameless) and it goes on..

But the easiest thing for the remain hecklers to do is sling insults. Rather like somebody who finds themselves on the 'winning side' by default. You're achieving nothing other than being pathetic and silencing posters who will be voting again. ... very well done.

@tomtom1999xx

Eh?

Was wondering what a bubkes was myself lol but didn't like to ask as Angry Llama was mid rant and sounded..... Angry

LimeKiwi, these people have had three fucking years to come up with something coherent. I think those of us who prefer stability are entitled to lose patience at this point. Especially after brexiteers, instead of coming up with a coherent position, have spent the time telling remainers how they are, mysteriously, no longer part of the British people whose will has been expressed and are all an elitist bunch of bastards.

Hmm it’s difficult because many won’t be able to give specific reasons.

Most will have reasons but like Remainers they may differ from person to person.

I think one thing IS clear....what Brexiters thought Brexit was going to be and what it’s turning out to be are two very different things.

Thank you Madroid. I too have struggled to hear a reasoned argument for Leave, even from family members.

I probably didn’t read the early threads on Brexit so have only seen the ones where Leavers refuse to say anything.

How long do you think the initial disruption will take? Even pro Brexit politicians are saying it could take 30 to 50 years before we see any benefits. That just seems horrendous to me.

I am a Remainer but with the move to the Far Right in some EU countries, I am now thinking with regard to Brexit we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t

On 'Leaver' said to me that, not matter how we voted in the original referendum, there is no real option now but to leave.

He said, that the humiliation the country would face after the fiasco of the past three years would leave us the 'laughing stock' not only of Europe, but of the world.

He added, that we now had an opportunity to show other countries, who are also losing affection for the EU (if the results from the EU-wide elections are anything to go by) that it is possible to go.

They seem like emotional responses to me, but perhaps the way the major parties have responded to the Brexit issue has, once again, resulted in an emotional backlash.

One

This has been done to death on mumsnet. Leave supporters have tried their best to tell Remainers why, but it’s just pointless and draining, as whichever way we put it, remain supporters find it hard to comprehend our reasons, no matter how we simplify our reasoning. I suggest you look back at all the previous threads on this, and then read the answers (really read them) and maybe you will get an answer to your question. It’s telling that there are very few threads from leavers asking the same question to Remainers as to why they wish to stay in the EU. Probably because we understand your reasons, might not agree with them but understand them, and so don’t need to ask you to constantly repeat yourselves.

I also think the impact of leaving has been hysterically overstated in the media and has encouraged people to panic.

So called forecasts are not without political motive and organisations like the Bank of England have an abysmal track record of forecasting and need to be received with a pile of salt.

We've lost our confidence in large measure in my opinion. We don't need to know our place in the world, we need to go out and create it.

Wow. I haven't heard the word dipshit since I was about 10. Still have no idea what bubke is though.

Llama, the voting public are not answerable to you. The politicians are. Why don't you direct that anger into something useful and ask them how they've allowed their people to become disaffected and disenfranchised?

No. You won't, will you. Better to impotently vent your spleen on a chatboard and make not a whit of difference.

Not just you but you're the one hijacking OP's thread by ridiculing and insulting when she's said quite clearly that isn't what she wanted.

I voted remain, not because I thought the EU was faultless (it’s anything but) but because I couldn’t see how Britain would be better off outside the single market, especially as the EU would have to give them a worse deal or else all other states would vote to leave. Immigration is frankly a red herring wherever one stands on it since our home office isn’t fit for purpose so we exercise minimal border control anyway.

Why did people vote leave? The fact we are a net contributor to the EU, the fact that British common law was much more respected internationally (which is one of the key reasons the City has prospered - people do deals here and arbitrate/litigate here) yet the EU is bent on harmonising legal systems to its continental version. As it is the extra layer of EU law added massively to the complexity of U.K. law.

The problem is that I don’t think our foreign office is much better and the chances of us negotiating trade deals with anyone are grim (look at the absolute hash they made of negotiating Brexit under May).

If we leave we will be worse off, but we will survive as long as we retain the rule of law and our various fields of expertise so that people have a reason to invest here.

In that respect the biggest threat isn’t Brexit but John McDonnell. The EU rules would preclude his grand plans, which is one reason he and Corbyn are arch Brexiteers at heart. He has promised enormous borrowing - good luck with that - and nationalising without paying market rate for assets. If he does the latter, you’d be hard pressed to find a single person on earth willing to invest money in the U.K., since it would be the clearest demonstration that your money will not be your own.

All of which is not to say we don’t need a fairer society. But we don’t need an impoverished one, that’s for sure.

Kitty I think you need to tell your leaver friend we are the laughing stock of Europe now. We have destroyed our national reputation with this bollocks. No one takes us seriously anymore. Why should they?
Ps bubkes - nothing (Yiddish). Dirty foreign influence, no doubt. Brexit will deal with that, eh?

Just read the other posts on this over the last few years. There are plenty of them.

I voted brexit and I’d like to see a united Ireland and an independent Scotland if the populations of those countries want to do so. I support their right to self-determination and if they feel they’d be better off outside the union who are the English and Welsh to say no? We aren’t living in an empire anymore. And I don’t want to live in the United States of Europe, which is where I think the EU will end up going. The EU should’ve stayed an economic union only between the original founding European countries and I’d have happily stayed in it.

There you go; I believe in small government, people’s right to self-determination and devolved control over increasingly centralised powers.

No racism or ‘don’t like them foreigners in my country’ here.

Yes brexit will damage the country economically, but that’s an unfortunate consequence of having to split from what the EU has become.

If someone said that if we joined in a total political union with Europe and gave away our sovereignty entirely, we’d quintuple (or whatever multiple you want to pick) our growth and wealth, would everyone be happy to become one country ruled from Brussels? If not, then you must recognise that economic growth isn’t the most important thing above all else.

Violet that’s why my DM voted Leave (she is in her 80s)

She now admits that the information given at the time of the Referendum was wrong and it shouldn’t really have happened as people didnt know what they were voting for. However, if there was a second Referendum she would vote Leave again.

I think the impact of leaving will be negative for a decade but will not be anything like as bad as feared. It's mostly the impact of confidence loss which ironically we are already experiencing with delayed investment decisions.

But good or bad, leave or remainer one thing is for sure and that's the lack of decision is delivering the worst of all world's

After being called thick as pigshit, racist, xenophobic, uneducated, stupid and ignorant, I think you will find most Leavers don't give a fuck what Remainers want and stopped responding to demands for answers a long time ago.

A lot of us have given our reasons many times over in the past but you're never satisfied so we don't bother now.

Ps bubkes - nothing (Yiddish). Dirty foreign influence, no doubt

Thank you for the clarification, I didn't know that.
Why bring dirty foreign influence into it though? Nobody apart from yourself has said anything of the sort!
I wasn't thinking that at all, I just hadn't heard the phrase before.
Ridiculous statements like yours (I don't think you can help yourself, can you?) is why you're not going to get answers.
Like I said earlier. Well done, another one giving a slow hand clap