To ask brexiteers to explain to me why they want us to leave the EU?

[ethelfleda]

I have a totally open mind here. I did vote remain but I genuinely want to know why people think that leaving the EU is a good thing?
I’m not being goady - I actually want people to convince me that Brexit is a good thing so I don’t feel so terrified of what’s to come!
So what is it about the EU that’s bad for us? What will we achieve by leaving?

The Guardian used to have a thing called “the Jewish test” iirc and most ardent remainers on here are posting content which would fail it.
Really?
Sounds a bit odd.
In every way.

OP, I haven't read the whole thread but how refreshing to read a post from somebody who genuinely wants to hear from people who voted Leave.

I'm not going to say how I voted because I don't wish to be branded as a Leaver or a Remainer amongst voices on this forum who try to bully, belittle and ostracise those who do not believe what they do (which in this case is usually the Remain view). In real life, I know highly educated, well- read people who work in a number of industries and, as in the referendum, tend to be split about 50/50. Fortunately these people, despite holding different views are able to hold intelligent conversations/debates about their differing views without resorting to calling people racist and xenophobic.

The posts from Remainers on this forum tend to regularly describe the current climate as a 'shitstorm' and then proceed to continue to attack those who voted to Leave. From a distant viewpoint, I assume this comes from the 'keyboard warrior' phenomenon because I would imagine that if everybody walked around spouting off what they do on these forums regarding Leave voters, quite a few of them would be arrested.

In years to come, regardless of whether we do eventually leave or stay in some fashion in the EU, it will be an interesting psychological study regarding the behaviour of some remainers on forums like this.

The Remainers who paint the EU as a benign, fluffy, altruistic, well-meaning institution are deluded. It was an economic agreement that lost its way. Ever-closer political union is now its goal, led by Germany and France who bully other nations into submission. But it will ultimately fail.

As for promoting peace in Europe, that's what the UN and NATO are for, two perfectly good military alliances. Economic unions are also good for peace, granted, but that should not mean simultaneous political integration. Ultimately nation states will revolt against political integration - that's what's happening here, Britain is just ahead of the curve.

When David Cameron went to Europe to ask for reform of the EU he was rudely told no. So that was that. No chance of reform from within. It is too big a beast now. And it's in the pockets of big businesses.

Seems a lot of EU countries are looking elsewhere
You wish.

I actually think it's a display of arrogance and an indication of where power lies in the UK, that voters are still expected to answer for themselves, again and again and again, three years after the debate was had, sufficient compelling arguments to remain were not made, the vote was cast and counted and the results announced.

the vote was cast and counted and the results announced
Yup. Leave lost today.
No worries, confirmatory ballot on the way.
You'll need more than 5m votes though.

I wonder how many of here might also agree that whatever the economic fallout of Brexit (if it happens), the social fallout, the anger we're seeing on all sides, is sadly also going to last at least a generation?

I think my grandchildren someday will ask me how I voted ... and I wonder what I and they will think then

I actually think it's a display of arrogance and an indication of where power lies in the UK, that voters are still expected to answer for themselves, again and again and again, three years after the debate was had, sufficient compelling arguments to remain were not made, the vote was cast and counted and the results announced

Agree

voters are still expected to answer for themselves, again and again and again

Here in England, Democracy is a process, not a result.

Do ask if there's any other aspects of our British Liberal Democracy you are confused by.

woman19 - considering the events of the last few months, I’d be careful saying you could explain British Liberal Democracy actually.

@CannoninD but none of those problems are the fault of the EU? I’m not really saying you should have gone to uni in Sweden, of course there are obstacles that mean that’s not something you can just easily do, my point is why be jealous of the girl who got the free degree when the reason she was able to is because her country is more progressive and allowed people born there or anywhere in the EU to get free higher education?

Of course it would be better to live in Sweden as it’s a more progressive and left leaning country (for now) but the problems are with our own government. What happened to your friend is a shame and it’s our government’s fault not the EU.

Leaving the EU will most likely only compound the problems faced by those who are working class as many of the laws that give our country social mobility and make it more progressive (though still far far behind some other countries)- equality laws, employment rights etc- came from EU directives.

I’m not asking why people voted leave. There are some good reasons to do so but they aren’t persuasive to me as I feel we are far far better in than out. I’m not blaming leavers either but I’m just sad if people voted hoping that their protest against the way things are will lead to positive change as I really can’t see any evidence that will be the case, other than perhaps for some of the very rich.

I think mumsnet is actually probably pro leave - the insults and slanging matches certainly wont win over any leave voters. Either Remain voters are thick or it is a plot to ensure a leave vote.

Remain did not make a good enough case for staying in the EU, the need to rationally and politely set out why the EU is the best of a bad choice remains.

As for the person who thinks the white paper on the EU future direction is actually good - the EU wants ever closer union. It has not responded to criticism in the past, hence the decline in the vote share of the main parties across europe.

this is about the country as a whole being empowered to make the overiding laws in our own country.
@lefty1 as I suspected, the answer is no. I’ve yet to have an answer to this from anyone banging on about the problem with EU making laws. I don’t need to google it as, there aren’t any that impact on me personally in a bad way. Professionally I’m not a fan of OJEU, but any public sector project has a restrictive procurement process written by idiots who are clueless, whether it is from OJEU or their own organisation.

On the other hand, we have;
Working time directive - something the U.K. wanted to opt out of.
Equal Pay directives - something the U.K. could have done before the EU, but didn’t
Food labelling - vital for those with allergies, not done by the U.K.
E number regulation - these were a known problem, U.K. did nowt.
Clean water and air directives - as with others, no sign the U.K. cared much about this prior to the EU.

I agree we could do these things ourselves. But we could have addressed these before the EU did, but we didn’t.

Come on leavers. Defy the above. Tell us why you voted leave. We really want to know and surely you want a platform.
I have gleaned these reasons from a friend “There are too many people in the country” and from a relative “in all the shops there is Polish food”.

Other than that I have noticed the leavers I know appear to read the Mail.

Just heard BBCR4 presenter John Humphreys state that one third of the country want a no-deal exit. Just a blatant lie to deceive the country into believing this tosh.

Astonishing how the BBC have really become the media arm of the Brexit Party.

Clean water and air directives - as with others, no sign the U.K. cared much about this prior to the EU.

Italy was a founding member of the EU and yet it has one of the most polluted towns in Europe - a steelworks town by the way;

Dec 2018 "The nitrogen dioxide (11,000 tonnes in a year), sulphur dioxide (11,300 tonnes) and hydrochloric acid (seven tonnes) are grandly dispensed by the candycane smokestacks of the sprawling Ilva steelworks, which encircles Taranto's northern flank.There are 215 industrial chimneys in all."

"When a southerly blows into town, the schools have to close; sometimes as often as five days a month."

"In 2010, the local council issued an order that prohibited children from playing outside because of soil contamination.The local college of surgeons publicly recommended children shower every time they come in from outside."

www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-06/ilva-steelworks-taranto/10490868

www.thelocal.it/20171025/italian-schools-closed-toxic-wind-ilva-steel-plant

The Guardian used to have a thing called “the Jewish test” iirc and most ardent remainers on here are posting content which would fail it.

Surely you can provide links for this content?

MrPan
Just heard BBCR4 presenter John Humphreys state that one third of the country want a no-deal exit.Just a blatant lie to deceive the country into believing this tosh.

Perhaps he was referring to this YouGov survey?

YouGov KSI Survey 1787 GB Adults 23-24th April 2019:

^"If there were a second referendum, and the choices were to remain in the EU OR leave the EU on the terms negotiated by the Government
OR leave the EU without a deal, how would you vote?"^

Remain in the EU 44%
Leave the EU on the terms negotiated by the Government 10%
Leave the EU without a deal 28%
Would not vote 7%
Don't know 9%
Refused 2%

I know 7 people who voted Leave and they are all racist. This includes family.

My vote to Remain was based on a choice between status quo and uncertainty.

I voted leave because I had had years of warning by the media and elsewhere that at some point the EEC/EU was going to progress into a federal union of which we would be a state, and that scared me.

However over the last couple of years my feelings have changed in many ways and I wish I had voted remain now.

loveonthewall
I know 7 people who voted Leave and they are all racist.

Oh yes, all Leave voters are racists - all Remain voters are not.

LibDem Immigration Policy Document 2014;

"We propose quicker decisions, right first time and fairer for all, that will help block ‘Overstayers’ and keep out crooks and cheats who would harm Britain."

Very sensitively put...