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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask brexiteers to explain to me why they want us to leave the EU?

363 replies

ethelfleda · 27/05/2019 09:00

I have a totally open mind here. I did vote remain but I genuinely want to know why people think that leaving the EU is a good thing?
I’m not being goady - I actually want people to convince me that Brexit is a good thing so I don’t feel so terrified of what’s to come!
So what is it about the EU that’s bad for us? What will we achieve by leaving?

OP posts:
Lefty1 · 27/05/2019 21:36

@Ohmygoodness101 have you nit read my earlier post ? U.s isn’t the only option and to be honest you can’t possibly say what the outcome of any food trade negotiations will be as they haven’t took place.

Lefty1 · 27/05/2019 21:38

Lol the fact we want to buy just like any trade agreement ?!
You guys are absolutely convinced (before even negotiations have taken place regarding food standards) that we will not obtain a sufficient deal , none of that is fact, it is your opinion .

Ohmygoodness101 · 27/05/2019 21:39

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LaurieMarlow · 27/05/2019 21:40

you can’t possibly say what the outcome of any food trade negotiations will be as they haven’t took place.

It’s taken place btw.

Initial negotiations with a few countries didn’t go particularly well. US want reduced standards, India want more visas (lol), Japan told us we aren’t a priority.

Why would anyone think we’d have the upper hand in trade deals? Who needs us more than we need them?

MamaMary · 27/05/2019 21:41

I voted Leave and would vote Leave again.

Nothing to do with immigration, it was about sovereignty and not being governed by far-away, unaccountable legislators. I also felt that the ever-closer-union was a bad idea. It chilled me when after the Brexit result Obama said Brexit was a 'hiccup on the road to a fully integrated European state'. Sinister words and the fact we seemingly can't get out is also worrying. Who wants to be part of a club thay doesn't allow you to leave? All the more reason to do so.

What really made up my mind was watching David Cameron go over to ask for reforms, to be humiliated by Merkel who basically said no. That showed me that the argument that 'we should stay in and reform it' was false.

Another worry was the neo-Liberal economics of the EU, the influence and power of big corporations on the EU. It has perpetuated inequality and is going inexorably in a neo-liberal direction.

The way that the UK has been treated by the supercilious and bullying eurocrats since Brexit has merely reinforced my opinion. Do Remainers seriously like looking to Juncker as their leader?

Ohmygoodness101 · 27/05/2019 21:42

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Lefty1 · 27/05/2019 21:44

Anyway , it was asked at the start of the thread , what is the reason for wanting to leave , I believe the OP has their answer. Smile
No one absolutely knows what the future will hold but I think ultimately the power to make our own decisions around law making will be better for the country.

Ohmygoodness101 · 27/05/2019 21:45

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Justanotherlurker · 27/05/2019 21:46

I’m afraid some of these arguments are a little bit cake and eat it again (I don’t mean to be rude) but negotiators roles are to get the best for your side.

Thats why its caused deep divisions across the main two parties, the cake and eat it applies equally to left leaning blair was a red tory crowd.

Ohmygoodness101 · 27/05/2019 21:47

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Ohmygoodness101 · 27/05/2019 21:48

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isshoes · 27/05/2019 21:49

Things like Erasmus (mentioned by poster above) will continue after leaving. Plans to ensure that have been in place for a few years now.

@madroid if that’s the case, please share those plans! I work in this field and haven’t heard of any such thing...

kikisparks · 27/05/2019 21:50

@CannoninD tuition is free in Sweden for eu students. So if you wanted to get free education you could have gone to Sweden. It makes sense that Scotland would have a bilateral arrangement since Scots can get free higher education at home and in Sweden. If you’re annoyed at having to pay for education you should direct your anger at the Tory/Lib Dem coalition government not the EU.

Standandwait · 27/05/2019 21:52

In the referendum, my husband voted Leave and I voted Remain. Within a week, he and I had changed our minds! He was uneasy to find himself rubbing shoulders with outright racists. I was dismayed to find the EU’s senior officers, rather than ask seriously why we wanted to leave, instead lash out with a flood of insults and a flat refusal to negotiate that could hardly have been more calculated to alienate us further.

A personal background: I am myself an immigrant to the UK, my husband and two kids and I have lived in four different countries in the past two decades, and I still have family living in six different (other) European countries whom we regularly visit. My husband and I both work in financial services in London. No one’s ever refused either of us a work visa even outside the EU. Immigration is very good for us – more nurses and doctors in the NHS, cheaper builders for our “mansion,” cheaper nannies for our DC who in any case each hold three passports. We have nothing to lose personally from the EU – or Brexit.

But sorry. The question was, why did some of us have reservations against the EU in the first place?

Consider that Britain was never fully on board, and why not. We (I am very proud to say “we” of Britain) didn’t join the euro – and subsequent events proved us right. As the financial crises in Greece and Italy demonstrated, the euro is basically a mechanism that systematically siphons money from the poorer less developed countries of the south and east to the richer in the north.

We didn’t join the Schengen zone – and subsequent events proved us right. As the migrant crisis of 2015 demonstrated, the EU is more concerned with raising walls to keep the rest of the world out than with expanding freedom of movement. Ask yourselves: on what moral basis should any country open its borders to Bulgarians and not to Syrians?

Since 1975 Brits have complained the EU is undemocratic – and it seems we were right about that, too. Why do people accuse Theresa May of being intransigent when the EU side have not budged a millimetre since David Cameron first went to them? And when our parliament fails to agree because there is genuinely no consensus among them or in the country as a whole, notice how Junker, Barnier, Macron et al react with shock and horror: oh, no, they’re letting their elected representatives vote – make them stop!

And why, oh why, is more fuss not being made about the Aachen accord last year – when Germany and France announced, without a flicker of shame or criticism, that from now on they intend to get together and agree on how to run the EU before every major EU vote? (Though, without looking anything up, can you even diagram the various councils and presidents of the EU, and how it’s supposed to work?)

Against all that, of course, I believe it’s a really good idea to have more multi-lateral organisations and international cooperation in general. Sadly, as I say, I am beginning to fear the EU is only in favour of cooperation among its own members, not with the rest of the world.

I did also believe that it is best to work for change from within. But that is only possible if the organization in question sees a need to change and is willing to change.

Now I think that the EU is a bit like the League of Nations – and that we may have to scrap it wholesale and try again for a functioning UN.

Not a reassuring analogy – the collapse of the League led into World War II – but that’s the great thing about democracy: voting and arguing take the place of fighting. I do wish we could talk about it on MN without insults.

Justanotherlurker · 27/05/2019 21:55

Scots can get free higher education at home and in Sweden. If you’re annoyed at having to pay for education you should direct your anger at the Tory/Lib Dem coalition government not the EU.

It's far more nuanced than that, especially considering Scotland charges English graduates, labour can have a major role in this by introducing uni fees whilst also wanting 50% of the population wanting to go to university whilst making it effectively a business venture.

We could get into a not true labour scenario, but it is still a lot more nuanced than just being a tory/lib dem issue.

Ohmygoodness101 · 27/05/2019 21:58

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Lefty1 · 27/05/2019 21:59

@Ohmygoodness101 I agree that politicians on both sides haven’t handled it well at all. They’ve embarrassed us all with their inadequacies . Hopefully the EU elections was enough of a message for them to stop fucking about and actually coming up with something that’s workable.

madeyemoodysmum · 27/05/2019 22:05

Maximusheadroom. David Cameron did ask Eu for reforms before the referendum
EU refused and were quite rude about it

Ohmygoodness101 · 27/05/2019 22:06

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Justanotherlurker · 27/05/2019 22:06

The UK never embraced the EU, even before the euro. I wonder now as Merkel’s long reign is coming to an end and Macron has many domestic issues whether a good British leader could have adjusted the EU’s course.

You have to remember that the same economists that are saying it is financial suicide to leave the uk where also saying the same stance wrt joining the Euro and have somewhat backpeddled and ignored that, as for Macron, look how he is doing with the reform from the change from inside narrative that is used. he being the champion left wing against Le Penn has found he effectively has no say.

Justanotherlurker · 27/05/2019 22:10
  • David Cameron did ask Eu for reforms before the referendum EU refused and were quite rude about it*

They didn't refuse, they gave some concessions it was the fact that the concessions whee a limited backstop

CannoninD · 27/05/2019 22:13

@Kikisparks

I appreciate that I ‘could’ have gone to study in Sweden. However I don’t speak Swedish so realistically it was never really an option for me to study in Sweden, was it? The same Swedish girl who was telling me all about how she was getting a British degree for free also told me how she’d been taught English at school (back home in Sweden) since nursery and that her and ALL of her school were pretty much fluent from early childhood.

🤔 Whilst I had a substitute teacher who knew less French than me... handing out shitty work sheets in Yr 7 until the school decided not to fund it anymore.

So actually 🤔 telling a child from a working class family who grew up reliant on the public school system in a poor area that they ‘could’ have gone to study in a non English speaking country .... is a bit like telling a homeless person that they COULD get a single occupancy discount on council tax.

Despite being relatively bright and in a pretty academic career now, I don’t find it difficult to understand why people voted to leave.

We live in a society filled with opportunities and adventure, technological and social advancement... but for quite a lot of people these are viewed through a ‘not for you’ glass screen, because they weren’t taught languages from a young age, were let down by a bad education system, can’t compete with foreign workers or simply can’t afford to break out of their mundane lives.

I have a VERY bright friend, a little younger than me and about to graduate uni, she sat in my living room the other day and explained that she couldn’t apply for graduate schemes as she had £20 to her name, and her parents had £20 to their name. She couldn’t attend any non local interviews as they don’t pay expenses for the early rounds (only later in selection) and even if they did she couldn’t afford to pay it out and then claim it back.

If she got the job she couldn’t afford to rent a room or set herself up anywhere. She’d gone to uni for advice and was told to move back to her parents (who live in a middle of nowhere hamlet 1.5 hours from the nearest town (which is extremely economically deprived) and she doesn’t drive as has never had the spare cash to learn. So now she’s returning to the same waitress job she had at 16, with a £40k+ debt around her neck.

I think A LOT of leave voters are people who felt that their own situations/lives were unfair and whilst Brexit wouldn’t resolve that, it would shake things up and they were fed up of slipping through the cracks.

Which is why I find it so odd when remainers go around loudly touting the positives of staying in the EU and demanding ‘one good reason’ people voted to leave.

I don’t the leavers give AF about your opinions and I think - if asked- most of them would respond to ‘give me one good reason why you voted to leave’ many would respond with ‘Because I wasn’t happy how things were and that the was option for change that presented itself’.

🤔 What I REALLY don’t understand is why the hell remainers target leavers so much. If the vote was SOOOO important and was going to potentially blow up our country - the ONLY person to blame was David Cameron for putting such a volitile question to the general public!!!! 😡

TFBundy · 27/05/2019 22:14

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Ohmygoodness101 · 27/05/2019 22:22

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madeyemoodysmum · 27/05/2019 22:24

Interesting read. It’s not just Britain wanting change

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48417744

Seems a lot of EU countries are looking elsewhere. No wonder the EU want us to stay in so badly.

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