Family member wants to have a conversation with me about the “wider issues” between us, which I really don’t want to have - who has the final say on something like this

[Desolate1]

We had a big argument about what was supposed to be a joint short holiday this summer.

Long story. And slightly ridiculous were I to write it all down.

This person has repeatedly messaged me about my failings (though she also upset me and I told her this and why), and I have apologised repeatedly at this point.

We have done all of this by message, and now she is saying that unless I have a face to face conversation with her in which we discuss the “wider issues” between us, she is cancelling the holiday.

Can’t tell you how much I don’t want yet another conversation about this, or to be made to feel shit about “wider issues”.

Surely the person who doesn’t want this kind of conversation gets the final say? I feel like I will be forced at gunpoint to talk, and it’s making me feel like running a mile.

@RedDogs not sure which question it is you're speaking of, so can't give examples - I've asked quite a lot of them on this thread (which is i suppose part of the problem, I do that )

You however ask @Dodgeball why they want to know something... what benefit it is to them to know. And that's the whole perception problem in an nutshell really. can't speak for @Dodgeball but I don't want to know for my benefit as such; but because if i care about you, I want to know what is going on with you, what's inside your head, what matters to you, because I'm interested in all of that and I think if I know you better I can be a better friend/sister/partner/whatever to you specifically. I mean you could say that if I know the best thing I can do for you as one of those things is just to leave you alone and not ask you to share, then that's fine I guess, but then what is the relationship for? Just, I don't know, company? Entertainment? Convenience?

I just don't understand the motivation of wanting to be with people but not know them or be known by them beyond the most superficial level. What do you get out of that and what do they?

yes, name I agree with all that. It would feel very odd to be friends or partners with someone who never wants deep and wide-ranging conversations about themselves and their emotions. I’m naturally interested in these things if I like someone, and I personally enjoy sharing those things with people I like. It’s nothing to do with getting any ‘benefit’ from it. Similarly when it comes to talking over disagreements and discussing what facets of our personalities clash - flaws or shortcomings if you like - this for me is far more productive and helpful than saying ‘right, line drawn, let’s never speak of this again’. I find I learn more about myself and the other person in the process

Names but why would you for example enter into a relationship with someone if you don't care to hear what makes them tick or want them to know that about you?

Can you explain what it is you want/need to know to understand what makes someone tick? What kind of things are we talking about?

What I find odd in your list is this what's inside your head, I don't know what you mean by this. I don't consider what I know about family and friends to be superficial, I don't need or want to know every waking thought they have and they don't need or want to know mine. I know what is happening in their lives and I know what is important to them. What are you classing as superficial? What is this deeper insight you want into people?

dodgeballchamp there it is again you find it productive and helpful the person on the receiving end of your dissection of their personality and shortcomings may find it the complete opposite of helpful. Once you have forensically taken them apart what do you do then, accept the differences, expect them to change for you, when do you decide to draw a line and move on?

I’m not sure why you find it so inherently offensive that I find those kind of conversations a positive thing? The idea is that both people participate, identify the issues, both accept their role in the disagreement, recognise the root of the issue, and find a way to overcome it. Obviously that can’t be done if one person flat out refuses to engage, but if that happened then they’re forcing an end to the issue. If it was something trivial I would more than likely forget about it without a discussion, but if it was a long-running and deep seated issue that I felt needed a discussion to be able to solve, I would take the refusal to engage as a signal that the other person held me in such contempt, and placed such little value on our relationship that they wouldn’t even attempt to solve the issue. So you think my approach is bullying, I find yours a purposeful kick in the teeth. It’s an impasse. The result of that for me would be that end the relationship (if romantic) or probably ghost them if it was a friend, because it would read to me like a signal they wanted to end the friendship rather than salvage it

But choosing to enter a relationship with someone is different to a sister. The OP doesn't owe her sister anything.

And as for the disingenuous, passive aggressive 'oh MN has so many fragile people, it's so sad' yadda yadda...I would argue that the sister is being the fragile one here, refusing to move on until she has her fix of whatever it is she needs from the OP.

I have zero problems with my ego, but have no desire to share more than I feel necessary.🤷

This is where we differ then dodgeballchamp I have never allowed something to become a long-running and deep seated issue.

I do find it strange that neither you nor Names can come up with any examples, despite repeated requests, as to what it is you feel you need to know, what exactly this openness entails, what kind of information you want shared with you, it's all woolly phrases like emotions, what's inside your head, what makes you tick. Can you just be clear and concise with what it is you expect people to share with you?

To use the OP's dilemma regarding the holiday. It has been thrashed out via several messages, OP has accepted being in the wrong and apologised, what more needs to be achieved? Why do you think it necessary to have yet more discussions, albeit face to face, to achieve the same end? All that says to me is that the sister wants to further punish the OP.

Well that really depends on the person and the conversation and the context as to what I’d like shared? If a friend or romantic partner, some examples might be their outlook on life and experiences that have formed that, political views, debating ethical dilemmas, sharing relationship problems or traumatic experiences if it was a fitting or appropriate time, relationship with family, controversial opinions they’re afraid to share with other people... but again, I wouldn’t just demand those things in a checklist, it would depend on the conversation and the person. In my experience most of those things come up naturally at some point or another.

In terms of a long-running issue where there’s a need to detail how someone’s behaviour or character is upsetting, it may be, for example, a romantic partner who you feel doesn’t respect or listen to your needs within the relationship, or a parent who you feel has never supported you at times they should. You might let those things go the first or even second time they happen because you want to maintain a good relationship, but inevitably the resentment builds and it’s necessary to sit down and thrash out what the problem is and how it could be overcome (or not, as the case may be)

Dodgeball I think that's fine when it's friends and romantic partners - because you can choose who you become close with and look for like-minded people. But when it's family and you have a link which wasn't optional, then surely there needs to be more acceptance of individual character traits? If you have a family member who is nice, funny but reserved and not a big emotional sharer, what's wrong with that? You might wish you had the same close and open connection that you do with your friends, but isn't emotional intelligence about recognising that people are different?

There is a whole world of other things to discuss in depth that are not me or someone else. I don’t find myself so endlessly fascinating tbh that I want to explore my inner life in depth. I’d rather discuss politics, social issues, literature etc. Just because someone doesn’t want to share all about themselves does not mean that relationships with them need to be superficial.

Here's a nice easy way to look at it; some people think that sex is an important part of intimacy. If their partner is less interested in sex, they take that as a rejection of them. Just like some people think 'opening up' and talking about feelings all the fucking time is an important part of any close relationship, and if the people they are close-ish to are not interested in endless discussions and analysis of feelings, they feel personally rejected.

Thing is, the one who wants to keep their boundaries in place has to be the one whose wishes 'win'. It's just as unethical to try to force someone into an in depth personal discussion as it is to pester them for sex they don't want. You know, invading someone's mind, or trying to, is just as wrong as invading their bodily integrity.

Whether it's sex or 'serious talks' when you get told No you back the fuck off.

You can decide you want to cut back on or end your relationship with someone who is at the other end of the scale from you WRT either sex or therapy-speak, but you don't get to force their participation.

Why does your need to talk in great detail and analyse deep underlying issues (of which there may be none) override someone else's need to just draw a line in the sand and move on?

This. Luckily my entire family are happy to never have deep meaningful conversations! Some of us just feel uncomfortable under attack when someone is insisting on identifying all of our failings.

I used to work with someone who wanted to talk through our "problems" all the time. She would send me emails that listed all of the things I'd apparently done wrong and demanded that we talk them through. In the end I had to put in a complaint about her.

There is no right personality or wrong personality. We are all different but it is often those of us who don't like long discussions about feelings and failings that are often the ones labelled difficult.

I agree sonjadog and ReanimatedSGB.

dodgeballchamp as I said previously I don't allow situations to develop that would allow for resentment to build. If I don't like someone's behaviour I tell them, if I don't like someone's character then I don't like them, I don't feel any need to deconstruct them and make them in my own preferred image.

I don't feel the need to divulge the minutae of my life and have it commented on or judged.

There's also a difference between people who prefer to talk things over in detail and those who try to insist on it: the latter group are usually self-righteous bullies. Anyone who tries to persist with me when they've been told No, well, after the third time they've refused to back off, then I see no need to be polite about refusing any longer.

I think the level of disclosure and truth-telling is very different in a 24/7 intimate partnership than in a family relationship that probably only survives because you don't tell the truth! Families are quite fragile things. I wouldn't be up for listening to a list of my failings from a family member, for sure. My close partner, it's different. I don't like being criticized but we are together so much of the time and tested in so many ways that it's inevitable that we will criticize and receive criticism at times. I can live with that. I couldn't live with a sibling banging on about my faults, me apologizing (I probably wouldn't bother with this bit unless I felt at fault) and then them wanting to have a deeper discussion. I'd rather not bother, some relationships aren't made to stand that level of scrutiny.

Ah man I keep typing massive replies and phone keeps deleting them. I will get back to this properly tomorrow as some really important questions have been raised!! But to RedDogs while I don't agree with everything Dodgeball says on this thread the "examples" you requested and she provided are largely in line with what I would have said.

L

I don't have to ask for that from my friends because we all talk in great detail about our relationships with each other anyway, I guess similar people will gravitate to each other.

I can't imagine anything worse than sitting around with my friends doing amateur analyses of our relationships with each other. I just like to enjoy their company.

Isatis we don’t analyse them, we just talk and share and ask advice and moan and laugh and discuss sex and relationship preferences/dilemmas/experiences BECAUSE we enjoy each other’s company, and we enjoy those kinds of conversations. If any of us needs to vent about our relationship the others are always on hand to listen. We also talk about films, music, politics, holidays, work... i could think of nothing worse than a friendship where deep, personal or emotional topics were off limits

Dodgeball: if you have a group of likeminded friends then you can all enjoy your preferred style of interacting and that's fine. Just be careful of backing each other up too much if, for example, one of you starts dating someone who is more reserved and has the rest of the group encouraging them to push the new partner into disclosing stuff they don't want to share.

My step-MIL is a bit like this; she once recounted a whole conversation with FIL where they were In the car and she kept shouting "You're withholding!" at him, while he held his ground and firmly refused to divulge anything further than he had. I had a certain amount of sympathy for the man!

She once also insisted that I put some music on that was personal to me, so she could learn more about me (early days of me and DH's marriage). I found the level of intensity somewhat alarming and intrusive, so put on an Arabic language album. I've never seen anyone so quietly put out

OTOH, I will discuss personal stuff with the people I CHOOSE to discuss with. If you push, it won't be you. That's a fairly basic line in the sand, IMO.

ContessaIsOnADietDammit Your MiL may be my sister!

Love the Arabic album idea.

@desolute1 how are things, did the chat go well?