Family member wants to have a conversation with me about the “wider issues” between us, which I really don’t want to have - who has the final say on something like this

[Desolate1]

We had a big argument about what was supposed to be a joint short holiday this summer.

Long story. And slightly ridiculous were I to write it all down.

This person has repeatedly messaged me about my failings (though she also upset me and I told her this and why), and I have apologised repeatedly at this point.

We have done all of this by message, and now she is saying that unless I have a face to face conversation with her in which we discuss the “wider issues” between us, she is cancelling the holiday.

Can’t tell you how much I don’t want yet another conversation about this, or to be made to feel shit about “wider issues”.

Surely the person who doesn’t want this kind of conversation gets the final say? I feel like I will be forced at gunpoint to talk, and it’s making me feel like running a mile.

It doesn't sound like the OP's sister wants to know about the OP's feelings though, it sounds like she wants to berate her and dig up past events that she still has a beef about.
If OP's sister was more self-reflective she might have compromised by saying that she is not always in the right. Instead it sounds like she wants to blame the OP.
Why should the OP have to listen to more of that?
I can have deep conversations occasionally, with friends who can see things from different angles.
I can't have deep conversations with my sibling, who gives an unbalanced, skewed version of events, in an aggressive way. Behaving like that doesn't invite further conversation. No-one has a right to force a 'deep conversation' on anyone else.

dodgeballchanp I absolutely disagree that wanting to explore deep feelings and discuss them in detail is bullying, controlling or any of the other things said. Like others have said I am in the camp that thinks refusal to self-analyse or talk openly about issues is a character flaw and I don’t think it’s a healthy way to live.

That is your opinion, and it is bullying and controlling to expect others to dance to your tune.

Sometimes it is necessary to point out people’s flaws to them if they’re affecting not only someone else but the person themselves.

Who put you in charge of what determines flaws in other people's character and personality? Who are you to decide that people should be a mirror image of you?

Providing you’re willing to have someone do the same to you - I would absolutely want sometime to explain to me in detail how my behaviour may be upsetting them and I would welcome the opportunity to think it over. Refusal to do that just indicates to me that the person is unwilling to ever take any responsibility for their behaviour.

Your flaw is expecting everyone to accede to your view of what they should be and how they should behave to suit you. Your continual probing and desire to access their innermost thoughts to analyse and judge against your own arbitrary criteria is bullying. Take responsibility for your own behaviour, stop prying and trying to force people to open up to you, they don't have to, they have a choice - accept it.

There is no way I believe you would sit and listen to someone detailing what they consider to be your character flaws because you cannot accept that other people are different to you, no way would you compromise and alter your behaviour accordingly.

You sound insufferable.

Well this is it. The one thing I most want to know about my partner is: does this emotional closed-offness actually reflect his internal world - does he really 'not know* how he feels or what he thinks about things, does he really not have all that going on - or is it that he does, but either can't get it out, or doesn't want to?

Option 1 I could at least attempt to deal with, by developing my understanding that some people's minds are very different places to mine and he isn't just withholding, it just isn't "there" for him the way it is to me. I could try and accept that and work on our strengths as a couple.

Option 2: I could find almost limitless patience for. If he is struggling but also struggling to share that, but actively wanted to, I could wait and try then back off and then wait some more, I could try writing letters to give him more time and control of the convo, I could try and identify more clearly what I need intimacy wise versus what I'd like so we could prioritise, etc.

Option 3 I'd have a clear cut case to just pack it in.

But the fact is I'll never know which of these three situations, or indeed a completely different one, I am in, because all he'll ever say is 'dunno' and get angry if I try and ask any more.

So I either take the chance of leaving someone I love struggling in pain, or spending the rest of my life with someone who is actually hostile/indifferent to me, just in case he is actually struggling and in pain. And that decision is mine to own, I know it. But being given some sort of indication of the lie of the land from him would be extremely helpful!

It doesn't sound like the OP's sister wants to know about the OP's feelings though, it sounds like she wants to berate her and dig up past events that she still has a beef about.

She wants to discuss an ongoing issue. Yes, she appears to have a “beef” with an aspect of the OP’s behaviour that upsets her. Unless your ego is so fragile that you cannot take any form of criticism, why would you refuse to hear her out?

I don’t think the holiday is going to work at this point in time OP, I think it will be deeply unpleasant as your sister is fixated on having this chat with her agenda.
I am reserved and hate big shows of emotion, hugging, heart to hearts. I would find this deeply uncomfortable and would not want to participate.

It seems to me that you each have a different way of dealing with conflict. And that you each find the others way to be inconclusve or threatening. Unfortunately, the only way you can resolve this is for one of you to open their minds and try the others way of handling it. I'm guessing your sister has tried to do this, but not found it successful.

I would suggest meeting with her as she asks and seeing if this works. It will probably be very uncomfortable for you, but at least you will have tried. But unless you do, a holiday together would be pretty miserable for everyone.

I agree with herculepoirot that it is a lot to do with having a fragile ego (in a general sense, I feel like we've moved on from the OP's issue now and she's said she is going to talk to her sister).

RedDog, I actually find it quite bizarre that you're so threatened by the thought of opening up to someone. It's not about wanting everyone to be the same as me or share my approach to life and opinions - but if I'm going to have a close relationship with someone, I expect the openness that I give to be returned. If you and I were having this conversation in real life, and you stated your complete unwillingness to compromise or examine your own behaviour, I would accept it, but our relationship would remain on a superficial level. Why can't you accept that it's my prerogative to have expectations of the people I'm close with, just as you can and do? If you think that's bullying or controlling then I'd suggest you're probably the one most in need of some serious self-analysis to see why you're so terrified of acknowledging your innermost feelings. But how is it controlling? I'm not stopping anyone refusing to do that. They're free to walk away at any time.

If you do meet, please be prepared to listen to her view of the situation without interruption, or it will not work.

Herculepoirot2 - maybe because the ops just coming out of a messy divorce and is in her words struggling to keep her head above the water.

Only a fucking bellend would persist on pointing out her ‘flaws’

QuickThinkOfAName

Depending on what those are, maybe you’re right and she needs a bit of special consideration at the moment. But all the people suggesting it’s awful for the sister to want the conversation, or for any person ever to have any expectations of another person? They’re wrong.

*Herculepoirot2 - maybe because the ops just coming out of a messy divorce and is in her words struggling to keep her head above the water.

Only a fucking bellend would persist on pointing out her ‘flaws’*

Something about this I was wondering, as well as the OP saying the sister thought the marriage was 'getting in the way' of their closeness - I wonder what the marriage was like. The comment by the sister that OP has 'irrevocably changed' from the marriage... It's strong and probably horrible and inappropriate but maybe suggests the sister's sense of urgency is that she's felt cut off from the OP b the marriage in some way, and now has years of pent up issues welling up. Totally inappropriate to dump on the OP when she's grieving her marriage but I can imagine the divorce and this blowout are far from unrelated.

OP was your husband like you (quite reserved, undemonstrative, not interested in talking about feelings)? Did you become more like that while you were with him? Did your relationship with your sister deteriorate during your marriage? How about your other relationships with family and friends? Is there anyone you do have a close, confiding relationship with?

Just some more ideas for what the sister's angle might be, and why you are so resistant. If your relationship has slightly 'trained' you to set aside feelings and avoid confrontation, it may play a role.

Op, I hope you haven't left, but you really shouldn't consider going on holiday together if you can't resolve this. It will just happen on the holiday.

Either clear the air or cancel it, she is correct in this.

@Desolate1

"Regarding parental dynamics as we were growing up - that’s interesting. I don’t remember them favouring one of us, and they probably didn’t."

Is that it? Nothing else to say about your parents? Neither of you have discussed the recent (or any other) issues with them? No childhood arguments between you and your sister that your parents ignored or helped to resolve?

You don't seem particularly interested in considering the deeper reasons for your troubled relationship, and that's fine, but in that case don't bother meeting up with her and certainly don't go on holiday with her.

If you are expecting another barrage of criticism you're probably right. You know her and your expectations are based on her past behaviour. You can react directly and hope that it changes. But there is no guarantee even if you change your own behaviour.

Based on what you said about your recent divorce and how you're feeling, I don't think this meeting is a good idea, you'll get another bashing in addition to the one you got from some PPs on here.

I was thinking about your situation last night, Names, and I think there is a difference between what you can expect from a partner and what you can expect from a sibling. I think it your case with your husband it isn't unreasonable to expect closer conversations. Even though I am firmly in the less communicative camp, I would expect deeper conversations with someone who I was a life partner with and it would upset me if all conversations were superficial. With a sibling, however, it is a relationship that is forced on you because of circumstance of birth and not one that I think gives that person an automatic right to know all your innermost thoughts. To me, there is a clear element of choice in how close you choose to let a sibling get to you and keeping them at a distance is completely acceptable.

@sonjadog that's a very reasonable distinction I think!

names if you think that I'm an introvert for not wanting my every thought and action analysed and picked over you couldn't be more wrong. I am very much an extrovert, do not have a fragile ego, I can take criticism of my actions or behaviour but I do not feel it necessary, nor will I sit back and listen to endless streams of cod psychology over something I said or did.

dodgeballchamp I am not in the slightest threatened by opening up to someone, I give what I want to give, no more no less. I have no interest in you or anyone else picking at and probing my character or personality in order to point out what you perceive as flaws and wanting to analyse them and I certainly don't need any self analysis, if anyone is in need of it I suggest you are.

When you say you want the openness you give to be returned what exactly are you asking for? If you tell me in great detail about your relationship with your husband/partner do you expect me to reciprocate with details about mine?

Does your sister very much enjoy soft play??

names I think you have problems in your relationship far beyond just a difference in personality, I don't think either of you are happy nor do I think you ever will be.

My husband and I differ but we accept and respect those differences, don't expect the other to conform to our way, don't think the other is wrong or somehow flawed for not being the same. It's actually one of our strengths as our very long, happy marriage attests to.

@RedDog I wasn't saying you (or indeed anyone on here) was an introbert; just that the same 'my way or the highway' indifference to others' needs whist expecting them to service and respect yours is at play in all these 'no-one has a right to expect openness' posts. OK no-one can or should force anyone to open up to them; but why would you for example enter into a relationship with someone if you don't care to hear what makes them tick or want them to know that about you? Especially if you know that's wht they want from a partner? Isn't it all a bit "I'm alright Jack"?

No one can force you to have a discussion you don’t want to. However is sounds like you have two choices. You either cancel the holiday and don’t have the conversation, or talk to her, hopefully you’ll resolve it and you can go on holiday. I don’t think you can avoid the conversation and still have the holiday.

If you do speak to her, it might be good to let her have her say, discuss it and ensure she’s happy with this. But in your shoes I’d also write down anything you want to say. But have your say, When you’ve truely listened to your Don’t listen to respond.

names it is difficult to answer your question without you being more specific about what it is you want to know.

Can you give some examples?

Is it really healthy to say you won’t change for anyone, or to talk about what others “perceive” to be your flaws? I have many faults. I hate planning. I am dogmatic. I can be selfish. I think I’m right far more often than I should do. I’m a pedant. I avoid conversations about emotions. I’m very happily married, but doubt I would be if I didn’t also have the capacity for reflection and improvement.

RedDogs I don't have to ask for that from my friends because we all talk in great detail about our relationships with each other anyway, I guess similar people will gravitate to each other.

But like names said above, isn't it about people on both sides of the fence on this compromising and respecting each other's approach? To just write off a need for openness as bullying is no better than the behaviour you dislike - it's a form of bullying in itself, it's stonewalling. Surely a compromise on both parts is the best solution?

dodgeballchamp it depends how far you want to push it and I feel you would not be happy unless someone was prepared to be exactly like you.

I'll respect your approach to tell in great detail the intimate details of your relationship, will you respect my approach not to do so? Or is it a case of I'll tell you mine but you must tell me yours and if so, why? Why do you feel you need to know, what benefit is it you to know?

No, I wouldn’t say “I’ve told you my thing so you must tell me yours” but as I said it’s very natural for my friends and I to go into great detail when talking about our relationships so if you said “I don’t want to talk about that, it’s private” I’d be a bit taken aback as that’s unusual in my friendship circle, but I wouldn’t push it. If we’d had some kind of falling out or disagreement I would probably want to discuss the ins and outs rather than just drawing a line and never speaking about it again.