To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

@sheettent
That should be posted everywhere. I think it's something many missed in general.
It's a very important fact on where the forced birth crowd sits

@shettent and @squeekums absolutely nail that post to the goddamn wall.
Make it bold.
Because this is the crux of the issue. Removing the right of a woman to choose what happens to her body - particularly poor women.

I give no shits about the debate on when a foetus becomes a baby, this is not about that at all and those who are jumping straight into that debate are completely missing the big picture.

So, @Bere11 - Alabama and all these other states deserve every single bit of negative press they receive. From women inside America and those of us outside. It IS like Gilead, it IS about having a choice and yes something is going wrong but it isn't "naice 30 somethings" having late abortions who are the targets.

Of course it's a woman prerogative to decide whether or not she views her life as one able to support a child, you are only able to claim it is not from a position of privilege where the decision is available to you. You are spectacularly missing the point.

I'm a wealthy woman. I have two children. I live in a country where abortion is not an option for women so we have to fly to Miami.

My husband and I have completed our family and I take precautions. The idea that if I were to fall pregnant and not have a choice whether I should continue a pregnancy that would have a direct impact on my marriage, my job, the country I live in and my children's lives leaves me fucking cold. I will do whatever I damn well like to exercise my right to do what I want with my body.

None of this is about "pro-life". ALL of it is about controlling women. Get the fuck out of my vagina.

And as a woman in the position of privilege, I will shout from the rooftops to aid those who have no such privilege...

Haven't read the full thread, but oliversmumsarmy's 'argument' some pages back struck me. This one: I wonder how many of the people posting are able to do so because at one point a predecessor was unable to get an abortion. I know I wouldn’t exist, and therefore neither would my children, or any line of my family going forward if abortion was available on demand when my mother got pregnant.

I'm one of those people. My sibling and I would both never have been born if legal, safe abortion had been available. How do I know this? Because my delightful mother used to tell us this frequently. She lived out her life resenting us and telling us we'd ruined her life when she was 21 years old. But so what if we'd been aborted and me/my sibling and our children did not exist? If we'd never been sentient, it would hardly matter would it?
What a fatuous argument, oliversmumsarmy.

@decomposing

So are you saying that in your opinion, the option of getting an abortion should only be available to a woman after she has had a counselling session, in case she regrets her decision or is being co-erced in to the decision? What if the counsellor decides that the woman might regret her decision of that it isn't the right decision for her to have an abortion, would they then stop her having the abortion?

You have written a lot about how in your experience you would see women crying and filled with regret after having abortions. It strikes me that you cannot possibly know how these women are feeling, and that you are probably projecting your own feelings on to them. I was very tearful and emotional after my abortion, but it was absolutely the correct decision. If you had asked me a few months afterwards, I would have said how thankful I was to have been able to have an abortion, it was a very difficult time in my life, I was in an abusive relationship and had a serious eating disorder. No way could I have been a good mother at that time.

I wonder where "informed consent" comes into all this? If no counselling is given can we truly say that informed consent took place? It is required for any other medical procedures or treatment.

@ScrumpyBetty

No I don't think a counsellor should be able to stop a woman but I think some women need the space to be able to ask for help or to think it through. Reading the accounts on the pregnancy choices board there are women who say that they were made to do it and now bitterly regret it and others who say they thought it was the right choice and now regret it. Do women like these not deserve a system that helps them?

If a woman has made a decision and is sure then a system that allows rapid access and a quick process will work well for her. But that isn't every woman is it? So is it just tough luck to those?

And no, I don't think that I am projecting. I have said repeatedly on here that what I saw was immediately after the procedure and I have no idea if later on those women were relieved and realised that it was the best decision. I also said that they were in the minority.

I don't know what the solution is. I just find it disturbing that do many people are willing to ignore the fact that some women are doing this against their will or too quickly to realise that it isn't what they want. It seems like these women are just seen as inevitable casualties in this.

Is the view really that this needs to be as quick and easy as possible and if some women live to regret it, ah well?

Of course there is informed consent.

The procedure is explained, the risks of it are also explained. There is a consent form which is signed by both sides.

I had a procedure done the other day. The consent consisted of a ten second quick explanation of the procedure and possible risks - I didn't have time really to think about it properly. That was fine for me. I know about it and I know the risks and I know what treating any complications would entail (though that wasn't explained to me) but had I not known that I'm not convinced that I gave informed consent.

Is that the process that you are talking about? A 10 second chat and then sign here? Are you certain that everyone understands and understands the risks?

“Is that the process that you are talking about? A 10 second chat and then sign here? Are you certain that everyone understands and understands the risks?”

That is not what happens with abortion.

I've been following this thread with some interest. The OPs concern for the state if Alabama is somewhat touching, if deeply misguided.

I'll state my position clearly to avoid any obfuscate. I am strongly pro-choice and have had an abortion myself.

Now, I'm only one woman and obviously one anecdote is not comparable to aggregate data but I'd like to explain what lay behind that decision in the hope my personal testimony will act as a counterpoint to some of the anti-choice rhetoric in here. I've thought long and hard about this and if someone recognises me then that's OK.

Anyway, enough waffle. When I had my abortion I was in my early thirties and already had an 18 month old child. I was escaping from an abusive relationship, homeless (I had been thrown out by my abuser) and recovering from severe PND.

I found out I was pregnant very early on (6 weeks) and was absolutely devastated - I knew without a shadow of a doubt I didn't want it to continue. As soon as I found out, I visited a family planning clinic, explained my circumstances and said I wanted an abortion. They could not have been kinder, for which I will be forever thankful.

I had to confirm my pregnancy by doing a test. They asked me if I was sure and what my reasons were - I explained as above. Did I want to speak to someone about my decision? No, I had made up my mind.

I then had to wait two agonisingly difficult weeks for the procedure. Because I was so early on in pregnancy, it was a non-surgical abortion and I was conscious throughout. Afterwards I felt a passing sadness but the overwhelming feeling was one of relief.

I have never felt a moment of regret for my decision. I wish I hadn't had to make it and I'm sad about the circumstances that led to it but they were what they were and can't be changed.

Anyway, that's my story.

Please forgive any typos and errors - I'm on my phone

If at any stage you don’t understand the possible risks you are more than welcome to ask any questions you wish.

That is not what happens with abortion.

What does happen then? And how will it change if they move to the 2 week pathway that is currently being called for?

“That is not what happens with abortion.

What does happen then?

You have professional experience- you tell us!

If at any stage you don’t understand the possible risks you are more than welcome to ask any questions you wish.

But that relies on the patient understanding and taking in the risks, having time to consider them and understand the implications.

I had a colonoscopy last week. Really quick explanation of what they do and the risks - possibly some bleeding, risk of perforation though unlikely . That was it. Now, I know that if they perforate the bowel they would then have to do major surgery to repair it, possibly form a stoma. There is a risk of developing peritonitis which could be fatal.

Was that explained to me? No. So did I really give informed consent?

3 years ago had a minor procedure on my back. Again very quick explanation. Risks outlined in a minimal way and sounded quite minor and short lived. Risk was 1:10,000 of a complication. I was that 1:10,000. The damage isn't temporary it's permanent and I have had to have a major surgery to relieve the damage. I have a permanent implant that affects me daily and has to be replaced every 10 years. Did I give informed consent? No. Had I known this was a risk I wouldn't have had it done.

So the idea of informed consent is a but of joke as far as I am concerned.

twofingerstoEverything

Your comment

If we'd never been sentient, it would hardly matter would it

So you think a baby in the womb is not sentient.

Just because you can’t remember that far back doesn’t mean you weren’t aware of what was going on.

You have professional experience- you tell us!

My experience is over 20 years ago. Am sure it has changed since then.

You have just stated that it doesn't happen how I described, so you tell us how it works. You must know because you disputed what I said.

Handsoff

There's also the dreadful practice of baby farming, which took place in the Victorian era. As now, poor women and children were the ones most affected.

What does happen then?

My experience was that I spoke to my GP. Who discussed things with me, made sure I wasn't feeling under pressure or anything like that. After that they referred me to a clinic.

At the clinic the options were explained again in a chat with a nurse. Counselling or further discussion was offered. All very informative and kind.

Unfortunately for me that's where the good bit ended as the next bit was to have a scan and my request not to be shown the screen was ignored (my pregnancies have never felt real to me until that point so I knew if I seen it I wouldn't be able to go ahead even though termination was absolutely the right choice).

After that point my upset and complaint was taken very seriously. Counselling was offered as well.

I will absolutely never forgive the person who thought that they knew me better than I know me and showed me that screen. I love my DD, but that betrayal of my wishes destroyed my confidence as a parent as I question every single decision I make with her because I always wonder if I'm doing A instead of B because I didn't want to continue.

People undoubtedly regret abortions. I would have regretted it. However, regretting it and it being the wrong decision are two very, very different things.

I’m at a loss as to what you want, Decomposing

The system is there, if you felt something was insufficiently or unsatisfactorily explained then you have the option to ask or to complain to PALS.

You seem to go ahead with procedures while unhappy with the explanations, but you don’t do anything to have them explained in a more accessible way. That’s not a fault of the rules the HCPs follow.

As for a number of women forced to abort, this is a social issue. Do we ban all marriages because there are forced ones?

You throw out the baby with the bath water.
I’m honestly not sure where you’re coming from in this.

We don't have full autonomy over our own bodies though. I can't opt for euthanasia because the state values protection of vulnerable people over my right to choose what is right for me

Voluntary euthanasia is a separate argument and one which doesn't belong on this thread. But it should take no genius to figure out that this comes under the category of 'individual bodily autonomy' as well. And this is a domain which has no place in the boardrooms of the state, or indeed anywhere beyond the body concerned; provided that the owner of that body is in sound mind and the process is properly regulated.

Pro-choice.