To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

I had one when I was younger. For the few weeks afterwards, my emotions were all over the place, sometimes feeling regret. Once the hormones calmed down I felt utter relief. Relief at not having to bring an abusive man's child into the world (who's since been convicted of numerous DV offences against another woman). Relief that I didn't have to quit the job tha, lose my home and live off benefits (no way would I have been able to afford childcare).

*We all have choice- but the role of the government / health system is to moderate that choice.

If a 28yo women or man, wanted a sterilisation operation on the nhs they’d be turned down. Even if they had legitimate reasons, the rationale would be they may change there minds - because life changes.

No one would say ‘welcome to gilead’ ‘my womb my choice’ about that.
We accept that’s not an essential treatment, and one the patient may regret.*

I would actually. Provided that proper support is given and the person requesting is fully aware of the ramifications. Sterilisation should be provided.

Again, women are infantilised and their wishes ignored. And for the record, I have heard of men's sterilisation requests being granted around that age. I have also heard of women's request being rejected because it was unfair to their future male partners.

Yep, welcome to Gilead right enough

Yes, bodily autonomy is a facet of personhood. There are analogous insofar as blood, bone marrow and organ donations: we are not compelled to donate even if it would save a life, even if we are the ones that have risked the life in the first place

To be clear I am pro- choice but this "blood donor" analogy really doesn't work. It completely ignores the unique experience of pregnancy and the fact only that 1 particular woman can carry that child- breaking the connection results in the death of the foetus. If you need a blood or bone marrow transfusion it's not my refusal to give it which kills you but the underlying health issue.

But if a foetus that does not have independent life should get to use her body against her will, what else is she?

She is a women in a horribly difficult situation, who became accidentally pregnant and has a responsibility to her child. She doesn’t become a one dimensional ‘carrier’ because of it. I don’t cease having concern for her because I don’t want someone to be killed.

Pointythings, I’m not saying women shouldn’t have sex, but that when they do they know there is a risk of pregnancy that they have a responsibility towards. Men are just as responsible for the risk but obviously do not bear the brunt of this in their body. I’m not saying I have all the answers but as a society we could do far more to support people with unwanted pregnancy that isn’t such a stark choice.

WestBerlin, I agree to a point, this is why I don’t feel criminalising women is the answer, and illegal abortions are not what I want for people, but you are right they would happen. While what happens to these women or their foetuses does not directly impact me, I feel it impacts us all to share social views that disrespect life in this way. And I would call out other injustices, so I have the right to speak up on my views on this issue that I feel is unjust.

Regret doesn't mean it was the wrong decision...and sometimes decisions can be agonising and even when we make the right decision we can feel bad about it, as with the poster talking about her father. I also know women like my great-aunt, I never met her because she died during a backstreet abortion, my actual aunt who has a physical disability because of a botched abortion, and so on...I feel for those women, whose lives were destroyed or permanently altered because of lack of availability of safe, legal abortions. All because other people thought they knew what was best for them, counselling is available I have worked with abused women, some of whom had abortions, all of them received counselling. I have no reason to think or experience - I have also worked in the NHS - to believe that the trained counsellors available are inadequate. But you seem fixated on this, and so it seems a bit pointless to discuss it with you further.

The 'botched abortion' was a backstreet one...the gin and knitting-needles variety.

Dottierichardson

Because reading posts on here, from women saying that they don't know what to do, their experience suggests that no counselling isn't readily available.

Some don't even understand the basics of the process and post asking the most basic of questions such that it makes you wonder what exactly they have been told.

If it as you say, that every woman speaks to a counsellor and is fully informed then that is great. These women that post on here are clearly mistaken about the experience they have had.

A councillor cant tell you what to do though. A councillor can only help you make clearer in your mind what you want to do. Women will always question whether theyre doing the right thing especially when it comes to such a life changing decision.

Councilling doesnt magically fix the problem. Of course it should be available but its not a quick fix and it won't automatically fix regret.

The answer to that then seems to be a programme of public education as to what support is available, and funding for that, lack of knowledge of a thing doesn't make it inadequate, it makes it poorly publicised. But all GPs, abortion providers such as BPAS offer counselling and advice.

How does abortion contribute to a culture of ‘disrespecting life’ though? This is probably the time in the history where we’ve had the most rights and respect for life (at least in the west), and with that we have had legal abortion. There was never a past ‘golden age’ where life was sacrosanct, no one had abortions and life was universally respected.

Sure you can have your opinion and apply it to your own life and womb. Knock yourself out. What you don’t have is the right to have your opinion dictate the actions of another woman who is faced with unwanted pregnancy.

Lass - my analogy is to demonstrate there is no other situation in which an individual can demand the bodily resources of someone else, even if denial of them resulted in death. Furthermore, if anyone tried to take my bodily resources against my will I would be entitled to defend myself against it.

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A councillor cant tell you what to do though. A councillor can only help you make clearer in your mind what you want to do

Exactly.

Why not read the pregnancy choices board on here. Have a look at the number of threads from women saying how deeply they regret it. It's more than them just being a bit upset and there are a few, just on the 1st page, saying that they were forced to have it. Then come back and say the system works great, they're just a bit sad like when your dog died and the answer is to make abortion easier.

Youre not getting it. Those same women could easily come to the same conclusion they did without a councillor, with one. They may still feel regret.

Women who are being forced into abortion need more than a councillor. Clearly thats part of a much bigger issue isnt it. A councillor cant actually get a woman out of an abusive relationship, away from controlling parents. Yes women like these need more support but that support isnt going to come from someone asking "and how does that make you feel"

PlantPotParrot

No it doesn't have to be a counsellor and I would hope that a counsellor would be saying more than " how does that make you feel". But clearly from reading those posts, something is not working.

Well what else can they say? They cant encourage one way or another.. what would you have them say?

If not a councillor then who? Who could actually make a difference for women being forced into abortion?

A lot of protestations on the basis of women later regretting their choice. This is skewed logic. We all - all of us - confront difficult circumstances at some point in our lives. When faced with these situations we make the decision we believe to be best for us at the time. Some of these choices we will later live to regret. Some, perhaps, we'll never get over, and will have consequences we'll have to live with for the rest of our days. Unfortunately this is the very condition of living; as is the understanding that no one can be right all the time. To transfer control of this scenario to the state is not only a cop-out of huge magnitude, it's an assault on human rights in their most fundamental form.

Suggesting that the legal right to bodily autonomy should be removed from everyone else in a similar position because 'some might regret it' is taking things to ridiculous extremes. It's infantalizing women, and putting their fates in the power and hands of 27 Alabama men who will not have to bear responsibility for the consequences. And it's barking mad.

Autonomy over one's own body is the most basic of human rights which exists. Sadly, some of southern US states have form for trampling over these; as do other states encompassing part of the British Isles.

It doesn't matter where these injustices take place. They're abuses and assaults on the rights and autonomy of women. And they deserve to be called out as such.

Surely their role is to encourage women to consider the options and then to come to a decision?

What do you suggest? Just open the doors to the clinic and no questions asked? Too bad if some women are forced into it or later regret the choice. They're just collateral damage?

@westberlin - do you think that beyond the age of viability, abortion should be allowed (if the risks of termination and giving birth were similar)?

Would people be comfortable with sex-selective abortion? Ie maybe woman would be willing to bear the risks and side effects of pregnancy for one sex but not the other. Similar arguments could be made for disability. This will come up more in the future with increased availability of genetic testing.

For PPs mentioning existing children, would a better adoption and fostering system alter the decision?

Autonomy over one's own body is the most basic of human rights which exists

We don't have full autonomy over our own bodies though. I can't opt for euthanasia because the state values protection of vulnerable people over my right to choose what is right for me.

Yes thats what a councillor does but under these circumstances they'd have to be completely impartial and so it would be very difficult to help a woman explore her feelings without leading her to a decision one way or another. Encouraging someone to explore their options can very easily become "have the baby itll be ok"

I have never once said any woman is collateral damage. I have just said i dont think extensive councilling would help these women you mention. Women being forced into abortion need proper on going help to escape. Not an hours councilling session.

Acis I think that in situations like this, the medical professionals will advise what is the best way to preserve life.

So if the way to preserve the mother's life is to abort the foetus, Pinkyy, would you agree with abortion in those circumstances?

Every woman at a TOP clinic is asked whether she's sure of her decision.

If she's forced into it then she can say so, and the procedure won't be done.

Namenic - yes I would.

PlantPotParrot

Ok so you don't agree with counselling.

What should be in place?
What currently is in place?

DecomposingComposters- do you advocate counselling for all women attending ante natal clinics to help them decide whether they want to keep the baby?