To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

You didn't answer my question btw if you want prolonged counselling then do you or do you not support a late cut-off for abortions to ensure that those who want to have a termination are not timed out?

I don't think there should be a time limit, no. It should be done as early as possible because clearly that is less traumatic but I think that it is always better for an unwanted child to not be born, providing the woman is sure that is what she wants.

I hated being pregnant. Truly hated it but I did it twice for my two wonderful boys. Id never want to be pregnant again. The thought that some poor woman is made to suffer a pregnancy and bring up a child because some unknown man decided it and banned her from making choices is horrendous. Truly awful
But this is a country with potty gun laws so Im not surprised by their backwardness over abortion. The south were last over racism and slavery as well. Speaks volumes

The regressive laws in Alabama and Georgia are not really about the sanctity of life though. They are about controlling women and their bodies.

By offering choice to her. By giving her opportunities to speak with midwives and building a rapport with them over time. By talking to her about her choices. By showing her there is another way if she wants it.

And still you haven't answered the question, doing this 'over time', means that the pregnancy will be more advanced, so presumably to allow for this time, you support late stage abortion? And also who ensures that these 'midwives' will not be essentially coercing the client into not having a termination? No disrespect to midwives btw. A midwife is someone who helps with birth, that is not the same as providing a counsellor trained in dealing with reproductive choices.

Glad you answered but still don't agree with you...

Dottierichardson

I have answered your question - no abortion should not be time limited in my opinion.

“And you are wrong about every single thing you have accused me of, including my experience around having an amnio.“
I believe your personal experience - what happened to you. I do not believe your tales of women racked with regret. I have heard them before.

@JassyRadlett,

Merename, the trouble with that logic is that it doesn’t stand up to any of the notions we have of personhood. One of those is that no person gets to use another person’s body without their consent.

Is that a facet of personhood? I think that’s just legal protection. And this is not comparing like with like, as pregnancy is a unique situation, it’s isnt possible for anyone other than an unborn child to depend on another’s body in this way. Again it is just the nature of our situation. I don’t say that to minimise the awful choices there are for people or trivialise this, but it is simply what pregnancy is.

You are forcing a woman to take on those risks against her will because of something that does not yet have the legal status of a person and does not have the capacity for autonomous life without its host.

For me, the unborn should have the legal status of a person, and I believe they are a person the moment they enter the body. That is an existential matter and not a legal one, and one on which people disagree. I don’t think that because they are not capable of autonomous life, they are not a person. Back to the born baby. They are not exactly capable of autonomous life either, they would die within a short space of time if not fed or sheltered.

Yes I would absolutely be in favour of transplanting unwanted foetuses into a safe place to grow, and developing social structures that allow for their placement within families. A system like this would also benefit the planet. I would adopt a child like this. It’s getting a bit sci fi, but I appreciate your point and think that is a helpful question.

I understand your point about ‘forced birth’ but in my view the options are forced birth or forced death. Both are grim. In my opinion, ethically superior to support the mother and family in the unwanted pregnancy and their choices around it, financially and practically, and support the child if adopted in a far better way than our current system allows for.

For some women who agonise over decisions counselling is likely to be helpful but it is already available; for many others who have thought things through it's just annoying. I have only had one unplanned pregnancy I had a miscarriage so didn't have to have a termination. I was not traumatised, I was relieved. If it hadn't happened, I would have had a termination, I would not have felt the need to discuss it with a stranger. Unlike some I do not feel the need to impose my point of view on others, so for those who want counselling it's good that it's available from people trained in reproductive choice i.e. not those associated in most people's minds, as midwives, are with birth and babies, for those who don't want counselling like me and some others on this thread, a drop-in centre seems reasonable.

I believe your personal experience - what happened to you. I do not believe your tales of women racked with regret. I have heard them before.

Err, if you believe it why did you accuse me of lying about it?

And unfortunately those stories are true about the women crying after. As I said, maybe they later were ok about their choice. I don't know. But in the time immediately after a lot were upset. Not all and not the majority but a lot. Believe it or don't I can't prove it to you but don't kid yourself that there aren't women out there who are damaged by their experience. And I don't believe that anyone who dismisses that actually cares about women.

Merename so you are one of those people that women should just not have sex if they don't want to get pregnant. How does that work in a marriage then? Does the man get to find someone else for sex if he and his wife have decided they don't want children? Or do they just not have sex any more? Or do they just have to suck up any unwanted pregnancies? Yeah, that's really going to do the relationship a lot of good. And marriage breakdown is so good for the children who are already alive...

Like all forced birthers, you can't be bothered to think things through.

I'm sure some women are upset immediately after but you mustn't forget the fact that some of it is a simple physiological response to the change in hormone in the body.

Not all, but quite a few I suppose.

Yes, bodily autonomy is a facet of personhood. There are analogous insofar as blood, bone marrow and organ donations: we are not compelled to donate even if it would save a life, even if we are the ones that have risked the life in the first place.

Anyway, this is largely inconsequential. The fact of the matter is that women will abort whether you think they should or not, whether it is legal or not. Already nearly fifty percent of abortion carried out worldwide are done so in countries where it is illegal. You can wring your hands about fetal rights all you like, it still doesn’t mean what another woman does with her body has anything to do with, or any bearing on you, whatsoever. All you’re actually proposing to do is force women into dangerous situations that can easily kill them.

Merename so you are one of those people that women should just not have sex if they don't want to get pregnant.

I got told exactly this today on Facebook. By a number of British men. Don't kid yourselves, Britain is going backwards fast too. I pray for you it didn't reach the shitshow it has here.

*doesnt reach.

A system like this would also benefit the planet. I would adopt a child like this.

You do realise that having a child is one of, if not the most, environmentally damaging thing you can do? However, just as it's recognised that some women want children, it should be recognised that others don't or don't at a particular stage in their lives. And yes a child needs food and clothing but that is not tied to one person...a pregnancy is the equivalent of doing something that we don't do in any other circumstances, forcing someone to give their blood, nutrients and so on to another organism. IN addition they risk death, pregnancy-related or birth-related injuries, post-partum psychosis, post-natal depression. All of which is hard enough for a mother who wants to have a child, it shouldn't be forced on anyone. No living person has that right, I might need blood or an organ donation or some other part of another's body but I don't have the right to demand it or potentially damage another's body to do so. Why is the foetus so special?

And unfortunately those stories are true about the women crying after.

I used to cry all the time on the pill, hormonal changes can do that to people, hormonal changes during pregnancy can do that too...Or maybe other people made them feel guilty, as some of the posters on this thread obviously want to do...

I think this is just part of the process whereby the USA sinks down into fire and brimstone

Back to the born baby. They are not exactly capable of autonomous life either, they would die within a short space of time if not fed or sheltered.

But as others have pointed out that is entirely different as that care can come from anyone and is not dependent on the use of another’s body - their circulatory system, their endocrine system, their digestive system. If that newborn required one of its father’s organs to survive - or anyone’s organs - we would consider it reprehensible to force use of another’s body to enable the baby, or any human, to live. But you are asking a gestating mother to do just that for an entity that does not yet have the brain development for consciousness.

Yes I would absolutely be in favour of transplanting unwanted foetuses into a safe place to grow, and developing social structures that allow for their placement within families. A system like this would also benefit the planet.

It absolutely wouldn’t benefit the planet. We need fewer people, not more.

I think it’s horrific and dystopian, fundamentally immoral and yes, baby farming. I think you and I are very far apart in our worldview.

In my opinion, ethically superior to support the mother and family in the unwanted pregnancy and their choices around it, financially and practically, and support the child if adopted in a far better way than our current system allows for.

I had hyperemesis for 8 months with my much wanted baby. Like many women with hyperemesis I have lasting impacts from that. Many pregnancies are complicated for many reasons. All carry risk. Many of those can’t be fixed with a nice panacea of ‘support’ even if forced birth with adoption as and endpoint wasn’t likely to carry lasting social stigma.

I also cried when I had my dog put to sleep when he was terminally ill, doesn't mean it was the wrong choice. Tears don't mean the same thing in all circumstances, people can cry out of relief, release of tension and so on...They may have internalised guilt from parents, friends, people with anti-choice attitudes. I know a lot of women who've had abortions, all were very happy with their choices.

sheettent fortunately I am too old to have children. And my DDs and I are not British - we are EU nationals planning to leave the post-Brexit shitshow that is soon to be the UK as soon as we can. We'll do our best to go somewhere the evangelical forced birth nutter brigade hasn't reached, and then turn to activism to make damn sure it doesn't. I will fight for abortion rights. Literally.

Dottie I cried when my dad died - having agreed that heroic life-prolonging measures were not appropriate for him. Do I regret taking that (joint) decision with my mum and sister? Hell, no.

What about when the birth of another baby within a family will essentially fuck up the lives of the parents and exisiting children?

If i was to fall pregnant now we would be on our arses financially. I would have to give up my job or dp would. Ds and dss quality of life would drop immediately because there would be no money spare. The new baby wouldn't get the same warm happy parenting that the other kids got. They'd have stressed skint parents. Still loved, im sure but love isnt enough to bring up 3 kids comfortably.

Is the unborn baby more important than the 4 existing members of the family?

Dottierichardson

It wasn't just that they were crying, it was what they were saying whilst they were crying.

Why are you so determined to dismiss the idea that some women will regret their choice? Yes, many will be sure that they made the right choice - I do not dispute that but there are a lot who regret it. Why do you have no concern for those women?

Have you ever considered that some women might regret not going through with abortion?