To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

The vast majority of women do not regret abortions. There have been studies into this that show the overriding feeling of women post abortion is one of relief.

No, I don’t believe we should legislate on the hard cases to the detriment of all other women. We have a freedom, but that is not the freedom to be free of regret because that is a price we pay for having freedom, because regret in life is a risk we take after every decision we make.

ChardonnaysPrettySister

But in truth how realistic is that? How long do they speak to someone for? Will they build trust in that time? If there abuser is sat outside how likely are they to admit the problem and work out how to escape this?

And what about those abusers that force women to continue pregnancies? The ones sat outside midwife appointments?

In the name of avoiding regret, we should have counseling for women that choose to continue pregnancies, weeks of it, just to make sure they’re really, really sure that’s what they want to do.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I think councilling has a place for some women of course. Do i think it solves the issues you mention? No.

I have no idea whats in place because i have fortunately never been in this position although i believe you can get councilling if you require it.

What should be in place? Again i have no idea. Abortion should be available for women who want and need it. It shouldn't have to be justified and as i say women who are being forced into it should be able to access help but it should be ongoing. Im not sure how that would work in practice. Maybe only allowing the woman into the clinic alone. Being asked if shes being coerced? The thing is women who are being coerced or forced probably arent going to speak up in this situation.

You are the one who believes we need some sort of intervention for these women, what do you suggest that doesnt prevent other women getting access to abortion quickly and easily?

The issue with extensive councilling is that pregnancy progresses quickly and a woman who would have aborted at say 8 weeks might have to do it at say 12 and struggle with that decision a lot more. You could easily cause more regret by enforcing this.

“DecomposingComposters- do you advocate counselling for all women attending ante natal clinics to help them decide whether they want to keep the baby?”

Are you going to continue to ignore this point? I suspect you are.

BertrandRussell

That's a function of midwives and ante natal care though isn't it? Women are asked if they are in abusive relationships and there is an opportunity for issues to be identified over a longer amount of time.

It isn't being done in one short appointment in the heat of the moment. If a woman initially decides to keep the baby but then has second thoughts she has a longer period in which to explore her options. It isn't the same as having to make a decision over a matter of days.

If the baby was potentially viable outside the uterus and it did not endanger the mother’s life any more than a termination (at this stage a late abortion), it does seem a bit strange. Fortunately the number of these cases is low.

Are you going to continue to ignore this point? I suspect you are.

I was actually replying to you. Where do you get off demanding replies to me?

Sure thing, so let’s make happily pregnant women go through counseling for weeks up to the time limit, specifically just to make sure they don’t want to abort.

Women should be forced into counseling they don’t want, they shouldn’t be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy longer than they have to just to satisfy someone’s idea that they might regret it in future. That is infantilizing, not only that it is traumatizing.

Shouldn’t*

We don't have full autonomy over our own bodies though. I can't opt for euthanasia because the state values protection of vulnerable people over my right to choose what is right for me.

Yes in this country but not all, and there are many of us who support the right to die, as I do. And let’s not make it about ‘vulnerable’ people, I have experienced two people being denied a right to die, one with multiple sclerosis, one with ALS, neither were ‘vulnerable’ they were totally in control of their faculties; and they died slow, agonising deaths because they were denied their right to die with dignity and on their own terms.

You are the one who believes we need some sort of intervention for these women, what do you suggest that doesnt prevent other women getting access to abortion quickly and easily?

I think the desire for some women to access an early and quick abortion has to be balanced against the need to protect other women.

I really don't see the argument that what some want justifies harming others. That's why we should be able to talk about this. The 2 sides have to be balanced and I think you can be pro choice but still concerned about the potential harmful effects of an unwanted abortion.

Namenic - my approach to other people’s bodies is entirely hands off, and that means I do support abortion as early as possible and as late as necessary.

Frankly, what mrs X down the road chooses to do with her uterus/her pregnancy/her life has absolutely nothing to do with me, and absolutely no bearing on my life whatsoever. I don’t, and shouldn’t, get a say in it, and imo neither should anyone else.

Dottierichardson

But protecting vulnerable people is the objection to the right to die - that some people will be pressured into that decision by unscrupulous relatives or because they fear being a burden.

Decomposing - so apply that same logic to those wanting to keep pregnancies too. If you want to legislate on hard cases at least be consistent.

But youre ignoring how potentially harmful for women to be made to wait for abortions.

The % of women being forced into abortion i imagine is quite low. Councilling will not solve this. It cant. It wont. You dont rise above abuse in 1 councilling session.

You need to get to the heart of the issue and unfortunately that comes way before the woman is in the waiting room for an abortion she does not want.

Decomposing - so apply that same logic to those wanting to keep pregnancies too. If you want to legislate on hard cases at least be consistent.

Apply what logic? And what hard cases? I don't understand what you are asking.

People get forced into keeping babies they dont want. You dont get extensive councilling when pregnant to make sure you absolutely do want to keep the baby and youre not being coerced into doing that.

By your logic we should be giving extensive councilling to all pregnant women and questioning their choice no matter what it is to ensure theyre not being forced one way or another.

But youre ignoring how potentially harmful for women to be made to wait for abortions.

And you're ignoring how potentially harmful it can be to rush women into a decision.

The logic that we should legislate against potential regret, because that would also apply to those women that choose to keep pregnancies. Hell, it would apply to any woman or indeed man that’s ever had to make a decision.

Mandatory counselling for every decision faced. Weeks of it if there’s time, just in

“Apply what logic? And what hard cases? I don't understand what you are asking.”
You seem incapable of understanding that women are coerced into having babies as well as into aborting them.

No i am absolutely not. Nobody should be or is being rushed into a decision. Youre free to see a gp or ring BPAS about abortion when you want to. Youre not forced to make an appointment straight away and afaik youre not put on the spot to agree to it right there and then. Who is rushing women here?

Sorry, rant ahead.

I think the op needs to read a bit more about the scope of the anti-abortion legislation in the USA, because it is an absolute erosion of womens rights in what is supposed to be the country that leads the free world. It's not just in Alabama - you have Ohio, Missouri, Mississippi, Kentucky, Louisiana with the heartbeat bills as well.
This issue and gun laws are the price Trump paid to get the Christian Right onside during his election campaign, and even he is startled at the severity of what the states are legislating.

It's all very well to witter on about using birth control - but are you aware that access to this is being denied in many of the same states that are now banning abortion? And that Plannned Parenthood is being shut down where possible removing womens access to cheap , free birth control? Abstinence is the acceptable sex education standard in these states - so if women are only offered that option as contraception of course there will be unplanned pregnancies. That is down to lack of education, and accessibility and the OP's sanctimonious little speil on I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing. is repugnant in view of those circumstances.

Most of this legislation is being deliberately designed to cause appeals to be made to the Supreme Court where there is the hope that Roe vs Wade will be struck down? Too bad if a few raped ( 3% according to the OP) women get caught in the crossfire while this shit storm is working itself out.

Is the OP aware that with some of these new laws there is a scary lack of clarity regarding miscarriage .The onus of proof is on the prosecution to prove that a miscarriage was actually a miscarriage ? So the implication is that the police will investigate a woman to determine if she genuinely has miscarried? Is that not genuinely frightening?Can you see how that will play out if the laws as they are stand?
There are women in jail in South America for up to 40 years because they are presumed to have deliberately caused a miscarriage . You good with that OP?

There is so much more to this than "Abortion shouldn't be easy" , and that is why the Gilead reference are flowing thick and fast. It's not about saving a foetus at all. And I completely see why American women are using the Handmaidens Tale as a rallying point.

One of the senators from Ohio has tacitly stated that the laws don't apply to an IVF embryo because it isn't in a woman - "she's not pregnant" , another has referenced medical procedures that don't exist ( transplanting an embryo from an ectopic pregnancy into a woman womb) as one of the acceptable options for using health insurance in reproductive matters.
And my personal favourite is the asshole Senator who says that there is a period of time before a woman knows she's pregnant, and that is the period of time in which she should have an abortion - before she knows she is pregnant - I mean WTF?
It is insane, about control and worthy to be incensed by. North Ireland should cop the same.

Oh and as an aside - fuck this have the baby and get it adopted bullshit. Poor women ( because that's who these laws will hammer) should not have their options removed to become defacto incubators for the infertile. I am adopted, was adopted at birth and the effects of that abandonment whether it was for valid reasons or not have damaged me and my life.

*just in case.

• sp Northern Ireland