To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

A woman’s body may be able to sustain pregnancy, but not without sacrifice and cost, often extreme ones. It is also not a biological diktat that because a woman can become pregnant, that she should be obliged to stay pregnant. If you want to compare it to driving - consent to sex is no more consent to pregnancy than driving is consent to crashing. Would you refuse a victim of a car crash medical care?

I understand those that see a fetus as a person, fine! But as no born person has the right to infringe on the bodily autonomy of another, I don’t see what impact it has on the debate. Yes, it is fine for a woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant to have an abortion: ‘do what they like with the unborn’.

Bertrand I'll be deleted with you too, because I agree with your suspicions, I've heard this all before too...'wait and see' is usually a delaying tactic in order to get as many abortions stopped by having them time out...It's dodgy as hell.

Itis fine to do what we like with the bodies of unborn people?

This is a really ambiguous question because there are so many possible answers.

I am pro choice, i think its up to each individual woman. When do "unborn people" become people? The vast majority of abortions take place before 12 weeks. Imo at that stage its not a person. You could v much argue it was a person when a baby could survive outside the woman, however a tiny percentage of abortions take place at this time and the ones that do are mostly for medical reasons. Women who wanted and loved their babies. These are not the people to target with pro life speeches.

Do i think women should use abortion as contraception? No absolutely not. But do i think they should be able to make choices about their own body , life and future? Yes, i do.

The woman is already living. She has to come first. I think the only time it should be questioned is if a woman is not using contraception and having repeated abortions but even then it shouldn't be prohibited but maybe some kind of intervention maybe needed for the sake of the woman.

I dont think creating unwanted children benefits anybody.

The mother hasn't asked the baby to be there either, if we're on the subject of requests. You ask for understanding, yet airily dismiss the actual vital difference between an entity that is entirely reliant on someone else's body to live and one that isnt as just the nature of the female body. Basically saying that that means we ought to act as carriers, to our own detriment, however we feel about it.

I can't even begin to try and reason with someone with these views.

No woman should have to justify her reasons for having an abortion

Alabama and other states doing the same things are stripping women of their human rights and are not only making having s face abortion difficult they're criminalising it! Not only are they threatening women with jail time they're making it unbelievably dangerous in the process.

These are the same places that do not give comprehensive sex education or information about contraceptive options to teenagers. This is why they have an incredibly high rate of unplanned pregnancies. They preach abstinence instead of giving people useful information to prevent potential unplanned pregnancies.

Not everyone is lucky to be in a situation where they want to bring a child into the world. And it's none of your business why a woman who's previously chosen abortion may chose to start a family a few years later with the same partner.

BertrandRussell

What don't you believe?

There's a lot you have accused me of on here.

wait and see' is usually a delaying tactic in order to get as many abortions stopped by having them time out...It's dodgy as hell

I'm not arguing for a wait and see aporoach.

Fund the system properly so that women move through it quickly but with support.

What system would you prefer? Would you support a drop in clinic, no questions asked? That would be quick.

Merename, the trouble with that logic is that it doesn’t stand up to any of the notions we have of personhood. One of those is that no person gets to use another person’s body without their consent.

If a foetus is dependent on one individual and only that individual to survive, at a risk to their health and life - and all pregnancies and birth increase that risk - then it can’t be said to be an autonomous person. You are forcing a woman to take on those risks against her will because of something that does not yet have the legal status of a person and does not have the capacity for autonomous life without its host.

Ask yourself: if the technology existed for unwanted foetuses to be gestated outside of the mother, in plastic sacs in a hospital or laboratory setting, would you be in favour of that?

If yes, then your position has a degree of consistency. I think it’s pretty grim, personally, and essentially baby-farming - but then I find the concept of forced birth with adoption as the end point a bit like baby farming too.

If no, then we are back to controlling what women do with their bodies and expecting them to make their bodies available for the use of others.

I wish I could link to Family Guy. Peter says " I'm here to save the unborn, once they get out of the vagina they can go and fuck themselves! "
Think the episode wasn 't aired in the usa.

@decomposingcomposers Yes, a drop in clinic, no questions asked would be a brilliant idea.
By the way, when I came round after my abortion, I kissed the nurse and thanked her, and cried tears of joy.
Still the best decision I’ve ever made, not a single regret, just relief as I look at my other 4 children

“There's a lot you have accused me of on here.”

Yep.

The mother may not have asked, but she knows that having sex, even with contraception, carries the risk of being pregnant. So she has willingly taken that risk. And sorry, but the nature of the female body is that it can carry pregnancy! This doesn’t mean I feel women are ‘just carriers’, of course not.

I don’t wish to strip the woman of rights, but I also don’t see how we can strip a child of their right to life. The rights of both are important and I’d like to see more discussion in general about the challenges of this and how both can be respected as far as possible.

And yep to a drop in clinic. That would be ideal.

Usingmyindoorvoice

So in that drop in clinic how do you protect the woman who is there because her boyfriend has forced her to go there? Or the girl whose parents are making her do it? Even though neither of them want an abortion.

Or are those women not important?

And I am glad that for you it was a positive experience. That is how it should be surely? That everyone who has an abortion is at peace with their decision. That means that they made the right choice.

So essentially, Merename, you are in favour of punishing women for wanting to have sex? Because “the nature of the female body is that it can carry pregnancy”. What bullshit.

I repeat. How do you protect the woman whose abusive partner or controlling parents force her to give birth?

BertrandRussell

And you are wrong about every single thing you have accused me of, including my experience around having an amnio. But clearly that's your idea of supporting women - deny any experience that doesn't agree with your view of the world.

Would you support a drop in clinic, no questions asked? That would be quick.

In the UK all women seeking an abortion are able to access counselling services. That seems fine to me. But for those women who have thought through their options and don't want to discuss it, I don't personally have an issue with a drop-in centre, I've never been in a position to have an abortion but if I had then a drop-in would have worked fine for me. Amazingly like many women I'm capable of making my own reproductive services.

And I'm suspicious of those who seek to delay terminations using counselling as an excuse it's a well-known strategy from the pro-life movement.

You didn't answer my question btw if you want prolonged counselling then do you or do you not support a late cut-off for abortions to ensure that those who want to have a termination are not timed out?

Yes, a risk which if it comes in fruition can either be carried out to birth, or terminated, depending on the choice of the woman concerned. Again, you wouldn’t deny a driver treatment if they crashed their car, and we all know that is a risk they take getting into a car.

Whether you like it or not you would be stripping women of rights, and giving fetuses more rights than any born person. No one has the right to demand my bodily resources, born or unborn, and nor should they.

I repeat. How do you protect the woman whose abusive partner or controlling parents force her to give birth?

By offering choice to her. By giving her opportunities to speak with midwives and building a rapport with them over time. By talking to her about her choices. By showing her there is another way if she wants it.

You know, all those options that you are so against for women having an abortion where you advocate a drop in clinic, no questions asked.

'Services' should of course be 'choices' having problems with MN keeps glitching while I'm typing.

If you think a woman ought to carry a foetus to term regardless of her own wishes mere, then yes you are seeing her as a carrier: you're giving her less humanity by placing her rights behind those of the foetus she carries. And the argument that because a woman has willingly risked pregnancy that should have some kind of bearing on the decision and outcome is horrifically misogynistic, sorry. Also ahistorical: women have always terminated pregnancies. It's as much a fact of human existence as our biology.

As for balancing the rights of both, until the point when a foetus can survive outside the mother, you cant. When the mother doesnt want to be pregnant, one of them prevails. Inevitably. You can talk about balancing and new ways of thinking all you like but that's the reality of biology and the science we have now. It's not a discussion that can possibly yield a different conclusion.

Would you do that for women that have chosen to continue a pregnancy? Pester them with information about different choices?

even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.

What your saying is what you think. It’s your opinion. Don’t judge others because of your beliefs. What you think means diddly fucking squat to women who are using there autonomy to not have a baby for what ever reason . The point is Owen are having their choice taken away. It’s terrifying

So she has willingly taken that risk. And sorry, but the nature of the female body is that it can carry pregnancy!

Just because it can, doesn’t mean it should. It’s like saying that just because the nature of the female body is to release ova, we should do nothing to prevent those ova being released or being fertilised (which is of course the position of some religions).

This doesn’t mean I feel women are ‘just carriers’, of course not.

But if a foetus that does not have independent life should get to use her body against her will, what else is she?