To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

And some women do not regret having an abortion. Anyone who assumes women’s regret and psychological harm from a termination seems to me to be someone who is not as wholly pro-choice as they say they are.

stillonly8am - thank you, that's very kind of you to say.

But most decisions aren't so absolute are they? Most times you could change your mind if you realise you made the wrong choice. You can't with abortion can you?

No, you can't. You can't with having a baby either though. And as an unwanted child, I can assure you that with that decision lies endless misery and resentment for all involved.

If this were an issue that concerned men rather than women, I doubt we'd currently be arguing (as we are now) over whether to legislate to stop them making decisions that they might regret.

Yabu because the punishment for abortion is greater than the punishment for rape or incest.

There is no decision you can make in life where you can guarantee that you won’t have regrets. That’s the price you pay for the freedom to make choice, and we do have freedom to make choice, even if those choices are hard and not ideal.

How is choosing to continue pregnancy different? How do women have more options? You can’t go back in time after 24 weeks and make a different decision, and even in adoption you will always have a child in the world that may turn up as an adult. You will always have paid those physical, emotional, and financial costs necessary to bring a child into the world, even if you regret it. So, so as to not to minimize the regrets of women who have given birth and regretted it, let’s counsel women towards abortion, let’s encourage abortion through legislation. No?

Exactly HB for some it will be the wrong choice, but at least it was a choice.

Why this ongoing infantilising if women?

I have had two abortions and two very much wanted pregnancies and babies.

Having now had experience of wanted children it makes me even more certain that I took the right decision and even more relieved that I had access to a safe service. And after brief counselling was deemed to know my own mind.

The whole approach should be centred on the woman, not manipulated and second guessed to engineering women into some judgemental version as to how she ‘ought ‘ to feel. Making it harder in order to support those who want to keep their babies is grotesque.

More support (financial, housing, independence from abusive relationships) for those that would rather not have a termination, more freedom and respect for those that do. If a woman does not have dominion over her own body she has no dominion whatsoever.

But for lots of women they will regret having an abortion, so that can't have been the right decision can it?

You can regret something without it being the wrong decision.

Like, you could regret that you had to have an abortion - and regret the circumstances that led to it - whilst knowing that it was the right decision and you didn’t want a child then.

And some women do not regret having an abortion. Anyone who assumes women’s regret and psychological harm from a termination seems to me to be someone who is not as wholly pro-choice as they say they are.

I'm not assuming anything.

I think that anyone who assumes that because their choice works for them it will work for everyone is also not pro choice.

“Which is why I want to see much more support and advice available. So that women can be supported to make the right choice - whatever that is.”

Really? Are you sure you don’t want women to be persuaded/guilt tripped into not having abortions?

It amazes me how often people profess not to be anti-abortion, but anti- 'abortion on demand'. On what other basis should it more properly be available?

If I'm against a woman seeking to terminate a pregnancy on any other basis to that which she deems fit, I am not pro-choice. And however unsavoury the idea of abortion as a 'form of contraception' might be, it's not my right to remove that choice from another woman. The ramifications both for her and that unborn child are ones they will have to live with; not the interferers or nanny states. And it's intolerable to think that the potential seriousness of that choice should override the 'conscience' of those who will never see the outcome of their imposition of their own views on other people.

Alabama is more than a retrograde step (and I'm not sure why the situation in either N.I. or Eire should be seen as justification for that state's decision when both are equally wrong. Women have died in Ireland because the life of the mother was deemed worthless; as if she's merely a vessel for carrying the unborn child). Unlike in Ireland, a woman in Alabama may not leave her state to seek an abortion in a neighbouring state. Nor does being a victim of rape apparently let her off the hook. These are gross steps backward, even by Irish Catholic standards.

FWIW, I find the idea of abortion for myself personally, abhorrent. I therefore have the choice not to exercise my legal right to terminate a pregnancy (although would do so were the life of the child not viable). I've lost five babies, taken a decade to conceive my DC, and would give anything for a sibling; something which is now never going to happen. But it's not my right to impose that preference on another woman. Nor any of my business what happens inside her own uterus; any more than it would be the business of 27 conservative, middle-class American males to decide what I did with mine.

Incidentally, an execution by lethal injection took place in Alabama only this week. The injectee took somewhere approaching 25 minutes to die. Ain't it funny how their 'pro-life' protestations alter radically when it suits them?

Misogynistic, sanctimonious, murderous hypocrites.

YABV,V,U.

WestBerlin

But for a lot of decisions in life you will have time to make the decision.

And my point about continuing the pregnancy is that you have a but more time to think things through.

If you are rushed to have an abortion at 8 weeks (that's 4 weeks after finding out) there is going to be the risk that you make the wrong choice.

If you initially make the choice to continue and then change your mind you have another few months to think it through.

All that I am saying is put decent counselling in place to give women the space to consider what they really want.

Why is that so objectionable?

I can’t even get through this thread - are there honestly people out there more upset / offended by comparing this situation to a fictional dystopia than by the impact on the rights of women? Really?!

If you have a child yourself, you know what’s involved in pregnancy, birth and raising a child. I cannot believe that people who’ve been through this can ever suggest that women should be forced to go through all this for a child they don’t want to have. How is this in anyone’s best interests?

I chose to have a baby. We actively tried to get pregnant. I conceived twins. That in itself was enough of a shock. I was not prepared for the physical and emotional detonation of my health that occurred during and after pregnancy and birth. I was definitely not prepared for the trauma of almost losing one or both of my children, or months in nicu. I wasn’t prepared for the reality of having two disabled children.

But I chose to have children, I wanted them and love them more than anything in the world. Everything I do is about helping them as much as humanly possible. 100% of my physical and mental energy is directed towards their needs. I could never expect someone who never wanted a child to be as committed to this as I am. I am sure they would feel resentful - sometimes I have moments of this myself, albeit fleeting. What sort of impact would this have not only on the parents and on children, but on society as a whole?

Well, we already have one renowned theory on the impact of Roe v Wade on American society...
freakonomics.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe/

Why would you want to dial back these rights? How could you ever be okay with this, as a woman and especially as a mother? Whether you personally would be okay with having an abortion is irrelevant - you should have the choice, as should all women. It doesn’t matter whether they were raped, coerced, had a contraception failure or didn’t even think about contraception. You can’t use a child as a lesson or a consequence. That’s disgusting. It’s irrellevant whether you think women should have the option to end a pregnancy - that option, and the methods / medications to achieve it, does exist. All you’re arguing about is whether women should have access to it safely and legally or not.

As for those talking about contraception, this is a country where the highest court upheld the decision that an employer can refuse to cover IUDs and the morning after pill on their employee medical insurance. Your employer can decide what type of contraception you’re entitled to access, legally. Never mind that it includes two types of long acting (and therefore reliable) contraception, and the one thing that could prevent a pregnancy in the case of a contraceptive failure. Because that company believes these things are equivalent to abortion, you can’t get them. Because that company is “religious” - a corporation’s religious beliefs (!) can Trump your right to safe and reliable contraception.

time.com/2941323/supreme-court-contraception-ruling-hobby-lobby/

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burwell_v._Hobby_Lobby_Stores,_Inc.#Aftermath

We should all be very afraid of what this means - Gilead is of course one potential eventuality. There are others. It shouldn’t be people pointing this out that upsets you!

Really? Are you sure you don’t want women to be persuaded/guilt tripped into not having abortions?

Yes, I'm quite sure that I don't want that.

Why do you have such a problem with women actually being given a choice?

If you are rushed to have an abortion at 8 weeks (that's 4 weeks after finding out) there is going to be the risk that you make the wrong choice.

Most women only know at 4 weeks pregnant if they were trying for a baby and testing as soon as their period was due. Unplanned pregnancies are generally detected much later, and they are obviously far more likely to be the ones where abortion is considered.

There’s nothing objectionable about counseling is women seek it out and freely choose it. Choice is once again the key. Choice without pressure or political manipulation.

People make choices they regret sometimes. Removing the choice for everyone seems a very odd response.
Sometimes I drink too much, banning any women from going out for a drink in case they get drunk and regret it the next day would be an odd response.

I have come late to this discussion but I don’t think yabu. I am very lefty in most other respects but I find the ability not to see termination as a ‘life and death’ decision, as you put it, difficult to understand. For me, life begins at conception, and th mother and the foetus should have at least equal rights, arguably the foetus greater rights because they are completely vulnerable and defenceless.

I believe in the west we have become completely inured to this being a person we are debating over. A newborn baby can not survive without being cared for, why is this so different to a baby in utero who cannot survive without intervention? Why does this mean their life is not as important as mums?

I don’t think it is a simple issue of course, and do not feel criminalising women who have abortions is the best way to deal with it, but I do wish that we could talk openly about different views without being attacked or shaming people on either side.

PP made a very good point. We are living in a world where a woman can face higher criminal charges for not wanting to carry her rapists baby, than the rapist will face for raping her. How repugnant.

A newborn baby can not survive without being cared for, why is this so different to a baby in utero who cannot survive without intervention?

A newborn baby can be cared for by anyone, a foetus in utero is wholly dependant on the mother to live. You can't impinge on the freedoms of one person even to save the life of another e.g. you can't be compelled to donate a kidney.

For me, life begins at conception, and th mother and the foetus should have at least equal rights, arguably the foetus greater rights because they are completely vulnerable and defenceless.

So you'd happily give a fetus more rights than an actual born woman? Once again "I'm a misogynist" is three damn words.

@klendraa do you not vaccinate your kids then as some vaccines contain aborted feral cells?

“Why do you have such a problem with women actually being given a choice?“

I don’t have a problem with that at all.

People make choices they regret sometimes. Removing the choice for everyone seems a very odd response.

But I don't want to remove choice. I want a system in place to support women to make the choice. It seems now that women are pushed through as quickly as possible with little opportunity to really think about what they want.

I've worked in gynae theatres. I've seen girls and women post op. Too many came round from the anaesthetic crying about what had happened. Now, I never saw them again so maybe they came to terms with it and were eventually glad that they made the choice. Or maybe they didn't.

Before then I had always been very relaxed about it but actually seeing the reality did make me think more about whether we were actually doing the right thing by these women.

It was disturbing to see how many women came back pregnant soon after having an abortion.

Surely being pro choice means that you have to consider this in the entirety. Is everything being done to ensure that as few women as possible are harmed by this?