To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

This life begins at conception also doesn't take into account the ivf process that is perfectly legal.
So disposing of frozen embryos is fine but ones implanted in a uterus have a mythic status ?
This is very illogical.

“It seems now that women are pushed through as quickly as possible with little opportunity to really think about what they want.”
Really? What on Earth makes you think that?

Oh, and presumably you’re pushing for counselling for every pregnant woman so she “really thinks about what she wants”?

dreichuplands

But IVF embryos are at a very early stage of development aren't they? They quite literally are a ball of cells.

Even at 6 weeks an embryo in utero will have a heart beat.

No matter what your view, I can see a big distinction between a 7 - 10 day old embryo and a 6 - 8 week one

I've seen girls and women post op. Too many came round from the anaesthetic crying about what had happened.

Most women cry when they give birth too. Does that mean they regret having a child?

Actually judging people in your head but not telling them is still being judgemental. It's just not admitting it publicly.

Also I don't get your NHS IVF point at all. For some people at some times getting pregnant is really easy and for some people at some times it isn't. That had always been the case. And just because I might find it impossible to conceive without fertility treatment, does not mean that other people shouldn't be able to choose not to be pregnant because they conceived and they didn't want to. That makes no sense to me.

And the bit about being selective of who gets ivf is purely down to the science of whether it's more or less likely to work if you smoke or are overweight or whatever. Anyone can have an abortion because these factors don't affect the outcome if someone is overweight or likes a fag. It's irrelevant. Many people will not become pregnant with ivf anyways but if the nhs is going to invest £10-20k in treatment then it makes sense to maximise the chance of success. Your comparison doesn't hold at all.

I'm speaking as someone who has been through IVF and is still 100% pro choice.

BertrandRussell

How long does it take from first contact with an abortion clinic to when the procedure takes place? And how much contact does the woman have?

Please stop trying to attach meaning to my words that simply isn't there.

I don't want anyone persuaded, talked into or out of anything. Decent counsellors don't do that.

I'm sorry if you don't like the fact that my experience of seeing lots of women go through this has actually made me think about it. The over riding aim should be to make sure that women are given the best support and help. Just because many women feel this is the best decision it doesn't mean that every woman does and those women don't deserve to be chucked under the bus in your rush to be feminist of the year.

You should believe in and support rights for every woman to be supported to make the right choice for her. Not every woman will be able to make that decision during 1 short consultation.

Mere, what a witless post. The whole point is that a woman carrying an unwanted pregnancy is not ‘mum’, and even if you consider a foetus a person from conception, despite the illogicality of that, you seem to see it as having considerably more rights than the woman carrying it. In what other circumstances can a human being be forced to share her uterus and blood supply non-consensually with someone else, let alone cause permanent, unwanted changes to that woman’s body?

This is bizarre. Have you pro lifers never made a decision that you knew was right but felt really sad about?

I’m personally pro-life but I can understand where pro-choice people are coming from because they don’t see the foetus as a person but some cells. I don’t think it would be helpful to Make the law more restrictive (as people would get back street abortions or travel elsewhere) or pressure women (which would damage them psychologically)

Instead I think it’s better to help women who do choose to continue the pregnancy (eg ensure they have the housing they need, welfare, job, childcare).

It isn’t as simple as a woman’s choice though. Many people oppose abortion on the grounds of sex selection. How about cleft lip? How about abortion of a healthy baby at 32 weeks with no medical issues in the mother? For those that are pro-life: what about ivf - the embryos which are not implanted? What if medical breakthroughs are discovered because of use of these? Difficult questions. Hopefully we can find a way to navigate them sensitively and calmly instead of shouting the other side down.

Most women cry when they give birth too. Does that mean they regret having a child?

Never heard a woman crying that she's sorry, that she wants her baby back, that she doesn't want the operation now (after it's been done) that she never wanted this but her parents made her...after they've given birth.

decomposing there are posters on this thread who state life begins at conception, that would cover all ivf embryos.
And having seen my ivf embryos at a few days and then again at 6 weeks, no there really isn't that much difference between them. Certainly nothing that could explain jailing a Doctor for 90 years.

“Please stop trying to attach meaning to my words that simply isn't there.”

I’m very old and very cynical and I have dealt with a lot of pro lifers in my time. In all their many manifestations. Including the wide eyed voice of sweet reason. “I just want women to to understand what they are doing- what’s wrong with that”?

Never heard a woman crying that she's sorry, that she wants her baby back, that she doesn't want the operation now (after it's been done) that she never wanted this but her parents made her...after they've given birth.

Well then come to America and see the hundreds of 1000s if just such cases.

Come and see the hundreds of 1000s of unwanted, neglected children.

I don’t regret my termination at all but I still found it difficult and upsetting. I cried afterwards, first out of feeling a bit empty and guilty - then out of relief. Everyone feels differently. You’ve just undergone a procedure when your hormones are already up in the air.

For my termination I saw the GP first, then saw a bpas consultant where I discussed it all and booked in the date to go to the medical clinic, I then went to the clinic and was there all day and met various people. They explained the procedure, asked for my reasons for the abortion and asked if I was sure at every appointment. I was told I could change my mind up until the procedure started and if I was not sure, I could go home and think about it and come back. No one at any point told me to do it. They asked if I wanted to see the screen while they scanned me, I declined.

Cells have the ability to turn into a human, therefore they’re more important than a living human? The cells have a 50% chance of developing into a female if they have a good incubator, in which case in as little as 12 years time, they may realise their life is now not as important as a clump of cells they may unintentionally grow and these cells now have more rights than them... what an interesting view.

BertrandRussell

Good for you. If I was a pro lifer I wouldn't have assisted in terminations. I would have exercised my right in law to not participate, rather than seeing some of the things that I did. But I did it because I believe that it is a fundamental choice for women. That doesn't mean that I think the system is ideal though.

sheettent

But the fact that some, even many, women regret having a baby doesn't mean that other women don't regret having an abortion.

What it means is that neither system is working because either way some women are regretting what has happened.

@DecomposingComposers I regret having an abortion. I think by the very nature of it many women will.

Was it the right thing to do? For me but especially for the baby? Absolutely. I have not one doubt in my mind.

A newborn baby can not survive without being cared for, why is this so different to a baby in utero who cannot survive without intervention? Why does this mean their life is not as important as mums?

A newborn can survive out of utero. It needs care, but that's a completely different thing. Physiologically, it's separate from the woman's body.

What it means is that neither system is working because either way some women are regretting what has happened.

There is always someone who is regretting something. Nothing can prevent this. Certainly no legislation.

That level of regret is understandable.

I am talking about the women who can't make peace with it and who later realise that there was another way or that it wasn't the right thing to do.

I've heard my best mate crying after his mum told him, after nearly forty years, that she wished she could take his existence back because it ruined her life. I've supported another close friend whose mother told her throughout her childhood that all mothers wish they'd aborted their kids, some are just more honest about it. I have a step-parent who was raped as a child and he never told his mother because she was still resented him because the gin-and-hot-bath didn't work. I have a father who was told throughout his childhood that he was an unfortunate accident. I could go on...

Whether or not to continue a pregnancy will always be a completely individual decision with no wrong answer, but we do women a disservice if we pretend that only one choice brings regret.

I believe in the west we have become completely inured to this being a person we are debating over. A newborn baby can not survive without being cared for, why is this so different to a baby in utero who cannot survive without intervention?

Because the newborn baby doesn't require the use of another person's body to survive, of course. It doesn't put anyone else at greater physical risk of harm or death by its mere existence, unlike an embryo inside a woman.

And frankly you sound inured to the person who the embryo is inside.

There is always someone who is regretting something. Nothing can prevent this. Certainly no legislation.

Can you prevent it? No.

Should you minimise it? Yes.

I don't see how the legislation in Alabama is going to reduce regret.
Pushing people into illegal backstreet abortions won't reduce regret.

Should you minimise it? Yes.

How? At the expense of many women who are certain of their choice? By risking lives and suffering because of unsafe backstreet abortions?

All it is is choice. Do it, don't do it, up to you.

I would put money on some women’s tearful reaction after an abortion being informed to a great extent by what they see as the expected, appropriate, societally approved response.

Every child should be a wanted child. Women should have bodily autonomy.