To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

“This is a complex and morally difficult area and if you don’t recognise it and explore and discuss it rationally and just keep shouting “as soon as possible, late as necessary” bollocks, it demeans is all”

Ok- the floor is yours. What’s your position?

Babies are born withdrawing from drugs, born and left in bin bags in the woods, taken into care, killed by their parents, grown up being passed from care home to care home, living in an unloved home, feeling rejected.

Woman are left with PND, possibly psychosis, mental scars that last a lifetime, psychical scars that last a lifetime, possible death. Subjected to statistically lower career progression, less free time, less life.

To force a mother to go ahead with a pregnancy she does not want, will only ever have negative outcomes for mum and baby. It is the most cruel thing that could be forced on either of them.

Until a baby can live without its ‘host’ it is essentially a parasite with no rights, they lie solely with the woman it’s attached to. If she does not want to do that, nobody has the right to force her.

Anyone who believes in banning abortion is not pro-life, they don’t care about the kids life, an unwanted child is not likely to have the best life. They are anti woman’s choice.

Why can’t we learn to trust woman? Trust that they know if they are ready and willing to mother a child at that moment in time. Trust that they will make the right decision and let them do whatever the hell they want to do with their own bodies.

Policing woman’s bodies? That seems like Giliad to me.

And it would be abhorrent to physically force a man to ejaculate, just as it would be abhorrent to force a woman to carry a child. Nobody is advocating for men to be physically forced into fatherhood.

YABU

It’s abhorrent to force a woman to be a mother but not to force a man to be a father?

It’s abhorrent to force a woman to be pregnant and give birth if she doesn’t want to. It’s not about motherhood or fatherhood. You can’t force a man to be a father - you can only force him to pay maintenance. And abortion isn’t about motherhood either, because a baby can be given up for adoption. Abortion is specifically about the fact that it’s wrong to force a woman to go through something as dangerous and life-changing as pregnancy and birth if that isn’t what she wants to do with her body.

Bodily autonomy is another one? Apparently it’s the compelling argument in this case but not if a women wants to use her body in ways not “acceptable” to the MN feminists so no to being an escort, selling sex or surrogacy. Apparently bodily autonomy isn’t absolute then? Only when killing living cells which might lead to poverty but not when using it to earning money to avoid it?

Lots of feminists, like me, are sex-worker inclusive. Surrogacy can be complicated because it’s open to exploitation but I’m not strictly opposed to it.

There is outrage if a woman grieving a miscarriage isnt given emotional & financial support because they’ve lost a baby ( never heard it referred to as a bunch of cells then!) but it’s not apparently not baby if it’s unwanted. Then it’s a foetus/clump of cells even a parasite according to one poster. So that’s the deciding factor is it....

I cannot understand the comparison between abortion and miscarriage. When a woman wants her baby and miscarries it’s a tragedy for her because she wanted that life to exist, and wanted the pregnancy to continue. Only a true cunt would think she wasn’t allowed to be sad because it wasn’t actually a person yet. But that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that what was lost wasn’t actually a person yet, from a medical perspective. The sadness felt by women who have miscarriages is legitimate, and any decent person should be empathetic. But why should that sadness impact on a completely different set of circumstances where a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant? The two have nothing to do with each other!

Just admit it, noname, you’re quite happy for women to be maimed and injured in backstreet abortion, serves them right for having an abortion doesn’t it?

@endofthedays

Not comparable on any level

Unless a women is raped, both parties should be aware that the act could result in a pregnancy

I think accidents happen and contraception fails, but in the whole of you are having unprotected sex you are choosing to risk falling pregnant - your not being forced into pregnancy.

Oh and the making it illegal just drives it underground and makes it less safe ..... ok then. Best make heroin legal then or child pornography. It would be much safer then.

Well first off, there's no such thing as "child pornography". Footage of child sexual abuse is the description that you are looking for. And are you really attempting to create an equivalency between an adult woman choosing to terminate a pregnancy, and children being sexually abused on camera? I'm not sure if you are trying to be goady and offensive, or are just really fucking stupid.

no child deserves to be unwanted

Exactly this.

Nobody is denying bodily autonomy to escorts or surrogate mothers. Nobody is stopping the bodily act, but the financial exchange.

Don't let the frequenters of the FWR board hear you say that.

The comparison was already being made by someone else OP.

Are you ever going to respond to the point that Alabama has not banned IVF in this bill, despite IVF creating hundreds of thousands of embryos that will be experimented on and destroyed?

@pinkyyy well when I had my miscarriage, they referred to it as a ‘pregnancy’. ‘I’m sorry but the pregnancy hasn’t continued’. They NEVER used the word baby. I noticed it specifically, because I felt exactly the same. I found out around 11w that the ‘pregnancy’ had ended around 7w. And despite it being much wanted, it was a collection of cells - not even an embryo and definitely not a baby. Your views are valid - to you. But don’t presume to impose them on anyone else. As early as possible, as late as necessary and for any reason.

I have been on the FWR board since it’s inception and the argument is against financial exchange, not compassionate surrogacy or sex with strangers.

“I'm not sure if you are trying to be goady and offensive, or are just really fucking stupid.”
I’ll go for really fucking stupid. It’s the kindest, most understanding option.

Oh and the making it illegal just drives it underground and makes it less safe ..... ok then. Best make heroin legal then or child pornography. It would be much safer then ....

Plenty of evidence to suggest heroin would be much safer and less lethal if legal. It would also contribute hugely to defunding gang crime.

Child pornography is a crime which victimises actual, existing children and (like other crimes like murder, GBH and theft) could never be legalised without causing irreparable harm to real people. There is no safe way to make child pornography, as you must know.

Abortion is not a crime. It doesn’t have a victim. It is a personal decision women make about their own bodies. It is a simple, straightforward and safe procedure when carried out by medical professionals. Making abortion illegal will not stop abortions. It will instead make women seek abortions from dangerous providers who don’t have the training, equipment or sterilisation to do it safely.

There is no comparison between abortion and child pornography, and your suggestion of a link is repulsive.

Why can’t we learn to trust woman? Trust that they know if they are ready and willing to mother a child at that moment in time. Trust that they will make the right decision and let them do whatever the hell they want to do with their own bodies.

Are you saying that no woman regrets the decision to terminate then? Because there are lots of women who say that they realise it wasn't the right choice for them.

Endofthedays

Beg to differ with you in regards to surrogacy. There have been plenty of threads slating people that have used surrogates, including altruistic surrogates.

YABU the only person who gets to decide if someone stays pregnant or not (obvs up to 24 weeks) is the person who is pregnant. That is it. Thats is all. Anything else is seeking to control women. My body my choice.

We will just have to agree to differ on our experience, decomposer.

I generally agree with you that to be pro-choice should mean supporting women through all stages of pregnancy and motherhood, not just supporting abortion.

I have definitely come across people, not on this thread, who are pro abortion but not pro choice. They don’t care about women having access to decent maternity care.

Are you saying that no woman regrets the decision to terminate then? Because there are lots of women who say that they realise it wasn't the right choice for them.

I’m sure this does happen, and it must be hard and awful and difficult for the women in question to deal with.

But a small percentage of women making a decision and regretting it doesn’t mean women aren’t to be trusted to make decisions about their own bodies. Some women regret having children (there was a thread on here about this in the last year). Does that mean women shouldn’t be trusted to decide to have children?

Regretting decisions is the price we pay sometimes for having the right to make choices. Not all choices are the right ones. It doesn’t mean we don’t have the right to make them.

Regretting decisions is the price we pay sometimes for having the right to make choices.

Absolutely, this ^^

A woman may well regret her termination, key point is that she had a choice and in that moment made the choice for her. It’s far more difficult to have not had the choice, and live with your regret and mistake 24/7 for a minimum of 18 years or go through the trauma of pregnancy and childbirth like your body is not your own, all to hand over your baby at the end of it and spend life waiting for your child to turn up at your door, hoping they’ve not had a shit time in the care system - when you could have stopped it when it was a clump of cells and got on with your life.

A few woman regretting their choice doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have the choice.

I regret voting Tory when I turned 18, doesn’t mean woman should lose the right to vote.

betrand
I don’t want the floor thanks - I’ve tried before and it just ends up in vitriol, whataboutery and personal attacks. My point in posting is exactly that - the endless posts just shrieking “as soon as possible, as late as necessary” and refusing to acknowledge that for a lot of people - it’s not religion or misogyny or any if the other shit that’s flung, for a lot of people, this is profoundly uncomfortable and difficult because however much one sided screams it’s not a human life .... for some people it is. I can’t ever advocate the death penalty ever and I’m profoundly uncomfortable with this ball of cells/parasite nonsense because it’s just not. And the line being when the entity (however you wish to refer to it) can survive in its own fraught with difficult as well. Not only does that line keep moving as medical technology moves, but does that mean that my niece, who is absolutely depended on a machine to breathe, is not ‘viable’ also? Should her right to life be dependent on her mothers ability to cope?

And, moving away from the moral argument and this is a big one for me, does abortion being freely available actually intrinsically subtly allow society to wash its hands of responsibility of children in poverty, for difficult faced by single mothers etc. Because if the perception is ‘women have a choice’ then is that contributing to this prevailing sense I get that we as a society are no longer responsible for each other, for disabled or vulnerable people? Is there such a thing as ‘Disposable people’ I suppose?
I don’t not know the answer but the catch all ‘as soon as’ blah blah and women choice stuff with no other discussion allowed doesn’t help imo

Are you saying that no woman regrets the decision to terminate then?

I doubt that anyone would say that. None of us can claim to know every woman who has ever had an abortion, so how could anyone ever claim that not one woman has ever regretted it? What a ludicrous argument. Are you saying that no woman regrets the decision to have a child?

I’d rather regret a termination than regret having a child I couldn’t give my best to.