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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

999 replies

Bere111 · 19/05/2019 10:41

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

OP posts:
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BertrandRussell · 19/05/2019 17:40

And what about women in abusive relationships who are forced to continue pregnancies they don’t want?

Cherrysoup · 19/05/2019 17:42

Yabu, hugely so. Who says women don’t know about the situation in NI? Who made you in charge of other women’s choices?

dodgeballchamp · 19/05/2019 17:42

lyralalala you are so right. Similar happened to my father - mother didn’t want him (she actually had an abortion, probably a backstreet one, but it failed and she ended up having my dad) and told him at every opportunity he was unwanted. He knew she tried to abort him. When he went NC with her, I found out through others that knew her that she celebrated because she wouldn’t have to ‘pretend to be a mother’ anymore. In turn, he was a shit dad. It would have been far better for everyone if her abortion had worked. Plenty of women DO regret having kids. Nobody should have a child unless they absolutely, 100% want it.

Endofthedays · 19/05/2019 17:44

Who is ‘parading’ abortion as a form of contraception?

WLmum · 19/05/2019 17:45

Your post leaves me flabbergasted.
Yet again all the responsibility and punishment on the woman - for something she may or may not have been able to prevent - she is to be punished for the rest of her life. If her life chances are altered because of the unwanted pregnancy, or because of a dangerous illegal abortion, and she ends up needing social support, you sound like you'd be pointing the finger.

How about the fathers of unwanted pregnancies must submit to vasectomies. They can then bear the physical and mental scars for the rest of their lives. Oh and they should also pay a lifelong tax. And be the subject to much judgement and criticism whatever the circumstances.

Fair?

RussianSpamBot · 19/05/2019 17:45

Just a thought OP, but maybe the reason so many women are selective about who they disclose their abortions to are worried about being judged. Judged for doing it for social reasons, for poor timing and planning, for any one of a number of criticisms you've made this thread. Even if you do manage to keep your views to yourself, we all know that a lot of people hold similar, and worse. So there's a taboo. You contribute to it by starting threads like this.

It's perfectly possible that all the women you know who've had abortions have kept it quiet because of that, not because they thought it was a shit situation.

Miljah · 19/05/2019 17:45

I note Alabama is 44/52 in the US states levels of education....

inthekitchensink · 19/05/2019 17:46

Oh for fuck sake, accidents happen, life changes, health changes, relationships change, finances change, support changes, no one can be forced to carry a child in any event and no child deserves to be unwanted

DecomposingComposers · 19/05/2019 17:47

No it’s not. It’s crap. Talk to me about how you’re going to stop it.

By having a benefits system that supports women - access to housing, money,work

By providing counselling and a chance for women to speak about what is happening and knowing that help is available.

That's what advocating choice should look like. Of course anyone who wants one should have it. And anyone who doesn't want one should be supported, not forced into it because there's no other option.

Jux · 19/05/2019 17:48

just don't believe that a decision taken when your back is against the wall can actually be called a choice.

Don't most people have an idea of whether they actually would like to have a baby before they're pg? I suspect most women know more or less how they feel about pg and abortion, so while they haven't thought specifically while having sex "would I want this potential baby", they will still have some sort of general idea.

Of course it can still be a hard decision when you find you actually are pg, and it can then feel different from what you expected to feel. Most women I know already are aware of their circumstances and their basic stance, long before any became pg. i include myself in that - and my stance most of my life had been very anti-abortion due to Catholic upbringing. Being raped and finding myself pg made it very clear tome how much of the church I had come to disdain and finally set me free from it!

Ginger1982 · 19/05/2019 17:48

@Endofthedays if that was directed at me, what I meant was I don't personally think abortion should be taken lightly or seen as a convenient fall back, but I fully support it being available whatever the circumstances.

Oblomov19 · 19/05/2019 17:49

YABU. I have completely different views to you. I am pro choice. I am horrified at the recent USA numerous states decisions re abortion.

Endofthedays · 19/05/2019 17:52

It shouldn’t be taken lightly because abortion (even chemically induced) is more invasive and has more of an impact on women’s health than using, for example, a condom.

Jodie571 · 19/05/2019 17:53

YABU as I don’t think you have the right to choose for other pregnant women, however I do agree that people are far too relaxed about contraception. I know A few women that fell pregnant without using any contraception then had abortions. I have to question why not just use contraception? Men and women need to be much more responsible than they are with contraception as I do feel abortion should be last resort (I.e - if contraception fails/rape/abuse etc) and not just another method of delayed contraception as I feel some use it.

RussianSpamBot · 19/05/2019 17:57

I have been extremely pro-choice since the Roe V Wade era but this sort of thing - abortion for convenience is turning me against all of it;

I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners

I have argued for fucking decades how an unwanted pregnancy could destroy a girls life and how only desperate women seek abortions. I was told by the anti-choice pro-lifers that a lot of women use abortion as just another means of contraception and I'd scream 'BULLSHIT women aren't that stupid, fickle, shallow, evil' etc but I'm wrong.

I've even read here (MN) that abortion should be legal up until week 40 - for any reason. Way to ruin a good thing girls.

Bore off AmeriAnn. If you've suddenly decided that you're now pro backstreet abortions and orphanages, because both of those things follow abortion bans so that's what it amounts to, that's on you. Not anyone else.

If you could only ever countenance abortion for the utterly desperate, and if you're also ignorant enough to think women in stable relationships with resources might not be desperate if forced into birth, you were never really pro-choice. And that isn't any other woman's fault. There was always going to be someone who used her bodily autonomy in a way that wasn't acceptable to you, so you would inevitably end up pro-Talibama at some point. Own it.

L1nkedOut · 19/05/2019 18:00

When NI gets abortion it won't go BACKWARDS and re-ban it so you are being unreasonable OP

Armadilloboss · 19/05/2019 18:01

YABVU

I never ever thought I would have an abortion. However when I found out my baby had Edwards syndrome and would probably only live for hours after being born (if he made it full term) it was the most obvious and pain free option for me and my husband. Make no mistake this baby was very much wanted.

The new law states you can only have an abortion if you are raped and it is reported to the police and the abortion is extremely early on, or the Mother’s life is at risk.

I fell in to neither of these categories. I would have had to go through a full pregnancy, give birth and watch my son die!

The law is ridiculous!

Hearhere · 19/05/2019 18:03

It shouldn’t be taken lightly because abortion (even chemically induced) is more invasive and has more of an impact on women’s health than using, for example, a condom

comparing abortion and contraception=disingenuous move

we should be comparing the impact of abortion with the impact of bringing an unwanted child into the world

ShittensAndKittens · 19/05/2019 18:03

Abortion should be freely accessible to ANY woman, for ANY reason, as early as possible and as late as necessary

Couldn't agree more. For me, this is the beginning and end of any conversation re abortion. That's all there is to it.

Gth1234 · 19/05/2019 18:03

@Bere111

I agree, but you can never get anywhere on social media with a "reasoned" argument. It's not worth trying.

Noname99 · 19/05/2019 18:03

Ffs I wish people would stop pretending this is such a simple issue black and white issue with no grey. It’s so unbelievably disingenuous and actually harmful it is to women’s rights - this ridiculous echo chamber. This is a complex and morally difficult area and if you don’t recognise it and explore and discuss it rationally and just keep shouting “as soon as possible, late as necessary” bollocks, it demeans is all.
And it doesn’t even hold water when stacked up against the other MN majority supposed feminist views ....

If a poster posts that she is pregnant wants to keep it but that the father doesn’t, the line trotted out is that if he doesn’t want children, he should not have sex. Apparently, this isn’t the fact the other way round? It’s abhorrent to force a woman to be a mother but not to force a man to be a father?

Bodily autonomy is another one? Apparently it’s the compelling argument in this case but not if a women wants to use her body in ways not “acceptable” to the MN feminists so no to being an escort, selling sex or surrogacy. Apparently bodily autonomy isn’t absolute then? Only when killing living cells which might lead to poverty but not when using it to earning money to avoid it?

There is outrage if a woman grieving a miscarriage isnt given emotional & financial support because they’ve lost a baby ( never heard it referred to as a bunch of cells then!) but it’s not apparently not baby if it’s unwanted. Then it’s a foetus/clump of cells even a parasite according to one poster. So that’s the deciding factor is it....

And I’m not even going to get into the insanity of the multiple posters who seem to be drawing an equivalent between a foetal heartbeat and an insect??? Ffs

Once you have an issue where each side become so militant that it refuses to discuss, to debate and to look for consensus it becomes polarised so only extremes are left. Referral to parasites, balls of cells, ‘as late as necessary’ etc when other people are mourning the loss of such is entirely unhelpful and has partially lead us to where we are now.

BertrandRussell · 19/05/2019 18:04

“I know A few women that fell pregnant without using any contraception then had abortions.”

Do you? A “few”? How many exactly? And how many men do you know who have “got pregnant” because they didn’t use contraception?

Noname99 · 19/05/2019 18:06

Oh and the making it illegal just drives it underground and makes it less safe ..... ok then. Best make heroin legal then or child pornography. It would be much safer then ....

Endofthedays · 19/05/2019 18:06

Nobody is denying bodily autonomy to escorts or surrogate mothers. Nobody is stopping the bodily act, but the financial exchange.

Hearhere · 19/05/2019 18:06

you can only have an abortion if you are raped and it is reported to the police and the abortion is extremely early on
and you know they will be redefining rape
www.huffpost.com/entry/missouri-barry-hovis-consensual-rapes-abortion-ban_n_5ce0194de4b00e035b90c307
'Missouri Lawmaker Backpedals On Suggestion That ‘Consensual Rapes’ Exist'

and making it hard to report