To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

"Women would make different choices if they had more support’"

SOME women MIGHT.

Most women who want to keep a pg will do do allsorts: submit to poverty, over crowding, single parenthood etc.

I suspect that pressure from a partner, whether abusive or just strong feelings one way or the other, is a bigger factor in this country than money.

But actually, however hard it is , can we not just accept that many many women simply do not want to be pregnant and do not want to give birth to a baby and take on parenthood. For many many reasons.

It seems that handwringing is practically obligatory in any conversation about abortion.

Agree with you, OP.

when someone suffers a miscarriage, people say that the woman has lost a baby. They do not say she's lost an embryo or a foetus or anything else. This clearly shows that they believe that woman carry babies, not cells.

I have had a miscarriage and not one person said I had lost a baby to me. I didn't think I had lost a baby (well respecting the right of any woman to feel she had). I had lost a pregnancy and the hope of a baby.

The muddled thinking of the OP which seems to run like - women have a right to abortion but some abortions are bad and some are ok and the women who have bad abortions should be punished in some way or given less access or considered bad people - puts the issue where Alabama has it. It is a judgement on good versus bad women. OP is doing it too. This isn't about life - it is about judging and controlling the behaviour of women.

DecomposingComposers Are women supportive towards women who choose not to have an abortion though? My experience tells me that no, they aren't. Why aren't we fighting as hard to legalise euthanasia? Why isn't that also a case of "my body,my choice"? Why do we fight for choice at the start of life but not the end?

Agree with you there, it's backwards.

It is one of the most basic human rights to have control over your own body. A PP referring to abortion... Yet euthanasia is illegal except for animals which you are allowed to put out of their misery. (I am pro-abortion BTW, but within the limits of the current UK law only.)

I'm sorry, lyralalala. A close friend of mine had a terrifying suicidal episode last year, the trigger for which was being told by his mother during a row that she wished she'd had the abortion. I've read so many times on Mumsnet that "you'll regret having an abortion but you'll never regret your squishy baby once it's put in your arms" , and I always want to punch the computer screen because many women DO.

It's a deeply unpleasant feeling. I mean, for me luckily there were bigger issues with my parents so I was taken to live with my grandparents when I was 7, but my older siblings have a lot of issues due to the circumstances and the eldest - who was also an accident - has major issues because he knew he was unwanted.

It's why I don't think that there's anything wrong with termination for "convenience". It's not a small or trivial thing for an "inconvenient" child to be brought into the world. My father was an inconvenient accident and he always knew it. When his time came to parent, he didn't have the resources to be a dad and he caused a lot of misery. Doesn't mean that termination is an option for everyone, and I will always support a woman's choice, whatever it is, in respect of her own body. But an "inconvenient" pregnancy is a far more serious and far-reaching matter than your shopping delivery turning up at the wrong time.

Exactly my feelings. A woman's only condition for getting an abortion should be wanting one imo. It doesn't actually help anyone forcing a child on a mother who doesn't want one. And the whole 'well if you don't want it give it up for adoption' line is something that boils my blood. Like that's remotely helpful.

I was very, very lucky that my grandparents were wonderful and basically insisted I have counselling at various points (including the first time I was pregnant) to help me work through the issues I had. I'm not a very confident parent at times as I don't have a normal background to reference, but my children don't fear me (my parents were violent and I was terrified of them) and they know they are loved (and the youngest two will never know that I wanted/contemplated termination as that's my burden, not theirs).

I actually think a complete ban on abortion is equally as abhorrent as forcing abortions would be. Neither should be an acceptable thing to happen in a modern society because they are hideous and remove a very basic right from a woman about her body and choices.

No woman should be forced to go through pregnancy and childbirth if that's not what they want. And your argument around choosing to have sex is ridiculous. So unless you are prepared to be pregnant and have a child you should choose not to have sex. So that's for most of your adult life then. All the time before you are ready and then all the time after your family is "complete".

Life is nowhere near as simple as you are trying to make out.

OP. I have reported your very spiteful post of 1501. When you start throwing mud, you just lose any limited ground you might have held. Which was little to none.

elasa sadly sterilization has been used as a method of birth control

Um, mum, I said hysterectomy and my post was directed by name to a poster who seemed to be under the impression that hysterectomy is what is used for female sterilisation in the UK, which it is not, and therefore her mate didn't want it as she didn't want a hysterectomy. It has nothing at all to do with anything else.

Particularly if you’re going to misrepresent her.

I've not misrepresented her at all. She changed her mind part way through the procedure. That fault rests with a process that didn't give her the right support to make the right decision for her.

No matter how you want to twist it, abortion isn't the right choice for everyone. Surely pro choice means supporting a system that allows everyone to make the right choice for them?

Why is it wrong to say give everyone proper choice and proper support to make the right decision for them?

No one pushes a woman into a decision she doesn't feel is good for her. There is always a discussion before the procedure and if the HCP isn'r satisfied the woman is perfectly confident with her decision she's sent away and given more time to think.

With a medical termination the woman can change her mind at any stage, even after signing a consent form.

Some do.

great point made by sheettent ie if abortion wont stand then neither will IVF or frozen embryo's etc
I cant see a way to square that circle...

ChardonnaysPrettySister

But how much support or counselling is given in reality? How much opportunity is there for a woman who might be in an abusive relationship and is being pressured into having a termination to say that and to look at ways of leaving etc?

It's a difficult line to walk I get that. No one wants to make it so difficult that women are put off from getting help but the wrong decision has the potential to affect someone for life.

I just don't believe that a decision taken when your back is against the wall can actually be called a choice.

Far more embryos are destroyed during IVF than are during abortion.

"For all the comments on here- abortion is a massive taboo in this country
How often has a colleague, or friend even, told they're having an abortion? They don’t.
I was a hr manager for 6 years for a global retail business, with a predominately female work force - in the 1000s of return to work interview I did, or sick leave processes I went through, no one wanted to tell me they had leave for an abortion.
As I said I have 2 friends that have had them, I know they were selective with who they told - for example, neither told their mums/ parents.
People don’t say, and people do t want to hear it, because we all know it a shit situation and not one to be celebrated. "

No. In a shit situation you don't want to 'come out' to people who will judge you - like you, OP.
Women are silenced by the prevailing narrative that it is only OK if you reveal details like rape or incest, which they may very well be even less willing to talk about publicly .
They feel that their decision will be dismissed by moral high horsers as a 'lifestyle choice'.
They feel they will be dismissed as careless / uneducated / 'treating abortion like contraception'
They feel that they 'ought' to be in anguish and crippled by regret, because that is what is expected, and that it is somehow indecent to be relieved to be no longer pregnant.

And people like you, OP, keep the taboo live and well and silencing women.

Unfortunately, there is always potential for regret in life, and that’s the price we pay for freedom. You can’t legislate against that potential without taking away said freedom.

There is potential for women to regret having children, but we don’t force counseling upon women choosing to continue a pregnancy.

I just don't believe that a decision taken when your back is against the wall can actually be called a choice.

Then you might find yourself with your back against the wall and with a babe in arms. How is that better?

Of course counselling during the TOP procedure won't help with that. One thing is though, you won't be pushed into the decision during that time.

“No one wants to make it so difficult that women are put off from getting help but the wrong decision has the potential to affect someone for life.”

Yes. And in a difficult situation a baby is not going to make things any better. Whatever the hearts and flowers brigade think. Domestic violence tends to increase in pregnancy. And then she’s in an abusive relationship with a baby. So another target.

Unfortunately, there is always potential for regret in life, and that’s the price we pay for freedom. You can’t legislate against that potential without taking away said freedom.

Is it freedom though? Are you really making a free choice when you are doing it through fear or desperation? If it is the only option available then it isn't a choice is it?

I will always support abortion because it will always be be better for an unwanted child to not be born. So for the child's sake it will always be the right choice. I'm not so sure about it always being the right choice for the woman though.

BertrandRussell

So it's ok for an abusive partner to force a woman to have a TOP is it? Even if it is against her will, because at least she won't have a baby to worry about?

For all the comments on here- abortion is a massive taboo in this country
How often has a colleague, or friend even, told they're having an abortion? They don’t.
I was a hr manager for 6 years for a global retail business, with a predominately female work force - in the 1000s of return to work interview I did, or sick leave processes I went through, no one wanted to tell me they had leave for an abortion.
As I said I have 2 friends that have had them, I know they were selective with who they told - for example, neither told their mums/ parents.
People don’t say, and people do t want to hear it, because we all know it a shit situation and not one to be celebrated

Just because it’s a shit situation doesn’t mean it should be banned.

Also there are many many people who also don’t tell anyone they have had a miscarriage. People are private when things aren’t rosy, that’s also not a reason to remove choices.

But you can flip that to apply to having children, it’s not like there aren’t women in abusive relationships having to deal with reproductive coercion to give birth and further trap them with their abusers, children in tow.

Should we be second guessing a woman’s choice to have a child then? Making sure she’s sure? Pressuring her to accept ‘help’ even if she says she doesn’t want it?

So it's ok for an abusive partner to force a woman to have a TOP is it? Even if it is against her will, because at least she won't have a baby to worry about?

of course it isn't ok. But why should that mean abortion isn't available? It isn't ok for an abusive partner to force a woman to continue a pregnancy either - maybe we should have mandatory counselling for all women who are NOT having an abortion too.

Or maybe as a separate thing society could try to deal with the abuse women have to endure in their domestic relationships and sort that out without limiting access to abortions.

“So it's ok for an abusive partner to force a woman to have a TOP is it? Even if it is against her will, because at least she won't have a baby to worry about?”
No it’s not. It’s crap. Talk to me about how you’re going to stop it.

I agree that abortion shouldn't be paraded as effectively another form of contraception, but I believe in a woman's right to choose and will always be pro choice (and I say this as someone who has struggled with infertility and had IVF)

The references to Gilead are entirely apt. The novel was a response to Atwood’s alarm at the growth of the evangelical far right in America and its regressive attitudes to women’s rights. She’s writing a sequel- something she always said she wouldn’t do- because the situation 40 years later is so much more frightening. As other people on here have said- it’s entirely about control.