To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

@whatwould

We all have choice- but the role of the government / health system is to moderate that choice.

If a 28yo women or man, wanted a sterilisation operation on the nhs they’d be turned down. Even if they had legitimate reasons, the rationale would be they may change there minds - because life changes.

No one would say ‘welcome to gilead’ ‘my womb my choice’ about that.
We accept that’s not an essential treatment, and one the patient may regret.

surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?

Yeah, YABU.

And you know what, it is a matter of life and death, but not for the cluster of cells, for the actual women who are alive and living now.
Because, you know what, you remove the right to abortion and you end up with women doing things on their own or in dirty hotel rooms and you end up with dead women.

So yes, it is pretty simple, women need to be able to chose for themselves without intervention from government and people judging like you.

thethethethethe, are you against IVF, then? IVF often involves the destruction of embryos, because the doctor fertilises more eggs than is necessary and then identifies the "healthiest" ones (i.e. the ones that are likeliest to implant). The leftover embryos are usually destroyed. Occasionally, they are donated to other couples, but demand isn't really that high. Couples who have IVF kill more "tiny humans" than women who have abortions do.

“No one would say ‘welcome to gilead’ ‘my womb my choice’ about that.
We accept that’s not an essential treatment, and one the patient may regret”

I bloody would!

All those saying it is their body and they can do what they like with it are the ones being unfair!

But my body doesn't belong to anyone but me. I can do what I want with it. How is that such a hard thing to grasp?

Your logic stinks.

Forcing a woman to carry a child unwillingly - to undergo the immense physical and emotional upheaval of pregnancy and birth - isn’t even faintly similar to refusing a sterilisation.

The NHS is isn’t moderating a choice in that instance, it’s making a clinical judgement about whether a procedure is going to be in the best interests of the patient.

Forcing someone to continue a pregnancy is doing the exact opposite of that. It’s saying, “Fuck whether this is in the patients best interests...we’ll decide how her body is used, not her”.

How disgusting. Why aren’t you ashamed of yourself?

“In my experience drs pushed a termination for possible downs syndrome and presented it as the only choice. I was roundly criticised for even considering continuing with the pregnancy if tests were positive,”
This is one of those things that I have never heard anyone who was not “pro life” say. I have never met anyone who was criticised by HCP for not wanting to terminate a pregnancy or not have invasive tests—including me. I suspect it’s more SPUC propaganda. “I was given the choice to abort” becomes “I was roundly criticised for not aborting”

I have been extremely pro-choice since the Roe V Wade era but this sort of thing - abortion for convenience is turning me against all of it;

I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners

I have argued for fucking decades how an unwanted pregnancy could destroy a girls life and how only desperate women seek abortions. I was told by the anti-choice pro-lifers that a lot of women use abortion as just another means of contraception and I'd scream 'BULLSHIT women aren't that stupid, fickle, shallow, evil' etc but I'm wrong.

I've even read here (MN) that abortion should be legal up until week 40 - for any reason.

Way to ruin a good thing girls.

elasa sadly sterilization has been used as a method of birth control - in USA usually on black women, or "others", disabled especially those with perceived learning disabilities right up to the 1960's usually without telling them & these could be young girls who had not yet had children & only discovered if they tried to have children - seriously sickening, seriously bigoted, & probably done more in places like this.

I don't like how the abortion debate seems to always have only two extremes - "as early as possible / as late as necessary" vs "not even in case of a fatal foetal abnormality or incest".
There's a very wide spectrum in between, but all sensible voices seem to be shouted down.

YANBU OP.
I can support the right to termination without supporting "my body my choice at any point and in any circumstances". I think there is often far too much pressure to terminate and an expectation that it's "the right thing to do". I was someone who had a termination because that was what was expected of me in my particular situation at the time.

At the very least there needs to be obligatory pre termination counselling. Sometimes women dont realise they do actually have other viable choices. Sometimes they just need support.

I think you are brave to raise your head above the parapet and say what you've said on this forum where you knew your opinion would be unpopular. It was predictable that so many would misread and misunderstand your point in their eagerness to froth at the mouth and declare how much more they care about women's rights.

Yabu.

I had an abortion because my contraception failed (mirena) and I wasn't financially or emotionally ready to have a second child.
I was in a loving relationship then, but we weren't ready for a second child. We had DS2 3 years later, when we were ready. It was absolutely the right decision for us at the time.

You don't have the right to decide who has the best reason for an abortion. You should only decide that for yourself.

I never understand the logic when anyone a) thinks a woman should have anything less than total control over her own reproductive choices and b) there should be unwanted children born.

Do you have any idea what it is like to know that your parents don't want you? To live in a home where you are barely tolerated by parents who didn't want to be saddled by another child? One of my earliest memories is realising that my parents went for an abortion but it was too late.

What does forcing women to continue with pregnancy actually achieve? It can totally fuck the mental health of the woman and long term it can totally fuck the mental health of the child. And for what? All so that people who have never been unlucky enough to have a contraception failure, or who have strong religious views can feel better about themselves?

If a 28yo women or man, wanted a sterilisation operation on the nhs they’d be turned down. Even if they had legitimate reasons, the rationale would be they may change there minds - because life changes.

That's another thing that is a disgrace. I have six children. I requested to be referred for sterilisation after the 4th and was told I was too young. As it was I was already pregnant with 5 after a condom failure (I'll accept that was very probably our doing). I went for a termination twice and couldn't do. Having a 5 stretched us massively.

I requested to be referred after the birth and was told I was too young.

I had the coil fitted. Coil and condoms were used. Yet I fell pregnant again. It was too late to terminate easily by the time we found out and after I seen the scan screen (which I requested not to see and was ignored - another example of women's wishes being ignored) I couldn't do it. I wish I had as my youngest has significant health issues and it brought my marriage to breaking point.

I'm now 38 and I'm still classed as too young to be referred. I haven't had sex with my husband for 3 1/2 years as a result as I don't trust any contraception. The won't refer him for vasectomy because of clotting issues. People have parties and weekends for their 40th whereas I'm mostly looking forward to being of an age where my GPs consider me able to actually make a choice about my own wishes regarding more children.

Women's choices are ignored, overruled and belitted far, far, FAR too often. Someone of 28 is not 15. They know the repercussions of their choices.

A man of 28, or 38, wouldn't be refused a vasectomy. IT's only women that can't be trusted to make their own decisions.

BertrandRussell

You can believe what you like. I am very pro choice. I have scrubbed in to countless TOP procedures.

That is exactly what happened to me.

Consultant gave me results of blood tests. Explained my increased risk and then told me the next steps.

Amnio, then if confirmed, termination. No, that would be one option, we would discuss it. Simply presented as that is what would happen.

When I said I didn't know what I would do I got a half hour lecture on how difficult my life would be, the child's life would be, how that would be a life sentence for me, how if I terminated I could move on and have another child.

It was awful. I was so upset. Actually what I wanted was to have the amnio so that I knew one way or the other but to have the baby but I felt so judged for this decision and so selfish for it that I refused the amnio. It felt easier to defend my choice if I didn't know.

On my 2nd pregnancy I refused any testing at all.

So call me a liar if it makes you feel better. It is absolutely what happened to me and I dare say to countless other women. But sweep my experience under the carpet so that you can bang on about choice.

I believe totally in freedom of choice. Proper choice. Including support to keep the baby. Why do you think women choosing to have an abortion for financial reasons are making a free choice? If their financial situation was different would they keep the baby? If yes, then they aren't making a free choice are they?

How does forced abortion help them either? Ultimately they’re forced to make a decision to terminate based on a lack of resources.

Nobody is forced to have an abortion the way women in Alabama will now be forced to give birth.

If your problem is that some women abort because they can’t afford to raise a baby then you better be first in line to adopt, because as I said upthread, every year in Alabama over 700 children age out of foster care without being adopted and there are very poor prospects for children in those circumstances. So don’t try and pretend that forced birth is the best option for an economically deprived woman or the clump of cells she chooses to abort when for the former it means more poverty, more medical bills and worse job prospects, and for the latter it means a life of deprivation and poor opportunities until, in good likelihood, they end up prison where their forced labour makes the men who voted on this bill even more money.

‘Women would make different choices if they had more support’ - possibly some would, but then the response to that should be to encourage more support programmes for those that wish to access them, not to restrict access to abortion.

It’s paternalistic and frankly insulting to women to suggest we’re too weak to make rational decisions for ourselves and our circumstances and instead need the law to dictate to us what we can and can’t do.

With regards to sterilization: actually the exact same applies. Women and men SHOULD be able to access it without having their decisions second guessed.

As for the supposedly previously pro choice poster - why do you think your opinions should matter to the lives of the women you deem to be irresponsible? Why is the irresponsibility of women that have nothing to do with you apparently more repellent that forcing rape victims to continue unwanted pregnancies?

What so many don’t seem to realise is that if we fixed problems with sex education and contraception, making these things freely and widely available without stigma or shame or judgment, and had a proper welfare state where a good standard of healthcare is available for all at no cost, where schools are good, where it pays enough to work and where there is a solid welfare net for those who can’t work, there would be a decrease in abortions anyway. But instead of investing all their energies into those things, pro-birthers focus on reducing access to safe abortions and then turn a blind eye to the terrible suffering that ensues.

In fact, in America the same people who want to make abortion unsafe are the ones fighting against comprehensive sex education / contraception / healthcare / welfare. If that doesn’t prove to you that they don’t care about helping babies and exclusively care about controlling women, I don’t know what will.

The point is like you said you don't understand why some people make the choices they do, being non-judgemental means not projecting your own ideals and beliefs onto others. You really have no idea what went through those woman's heads and why they made the decisions they did.

I don't think I could choose an abortion myself, but I believe everyone should have a choice. It's not so cut and dry to say it's a choice to get pregnant, of course it's not. Of course we as woman could choose to complete abstain for sex under any circumstances unless we are prepared for it to end in pregnancy, because that's the only choice. Under that logic you could say anyone that gets knocked over by a car then it's their choice regardless of at actions taken by the pedestrian to stay safe.

People are fighting for better rights in Northern Island, I'm unsure how you could have missed that to be honest, but the point about the changes in America is that they are CHANGES to the law, instead of being progressive they have gone backwards, we know the issues lack of abortion services resulted in here in the UK, It seems backwards they would revert BACK to that state of things.

As for you opinion about a 6 week old being a collection of cells and a 16 week old being a baby is just your opinion. Frankly everyone from science to religion have vastly different views. Some believe life begins at conception other believe when the heart starts beating (6 weeks), and so on. One thing is certain, Whether it be 6 weeks or 16 both are completely unviable without the "host".

Personally I believe this move is deeply concerning. I was raised in a very conservative religion where abortion was seen as one of the ultimate sins, however even they had more "flexibility" than this law. Regardless it what I or anyone else believes, women should be able to choose. I may not understand others choices but I will fight tooth and nail for them to have that choice and respect each person for the choice they make.

Women would make different choices if they had more support

Even if that is true, which I doubt is the case in the majority of cases, that support isn't there.

One of the disgraces of the Alabama decisions is that those who have decided women must give birth have also spent years decimating support post birth because people have to be responsible for themselves.

As long as that responsible decision, like not having a child you can't afford, doens't offend someone else's religious or moral views.

Women would make different choices if they had more support’ - possibly some would, but then the response to that should be to encourage more support programmes for those that wish to access them, not to restrict access to abortion.

Yes I agree. Support, counselling, better benefits system as well as abortion for anyone that wants it.

There was a thread recently that was heartbreaking. A poster had taken the first tablet of a medical termination and had changed her mind. She wanted to know how she could reverse it. Basically she had been rushed into it and now regretted it. How was that right or helpful for her?

Why is it wrong to say give everyone proper choice and proper support to make the right decision for them?

I fell pregnant with my 2nd DD while i was on the pill, the doctor asked me if i wanted an abortion as i was taking contraceptives, i chose not to, couldn't risk it happening again i was sterilised aged 25. Accident's happen if a woman want's an abortion it's her choice.

“Basically she had been rushed into it and now regretted it. How was that right or helpful for her?”

She hadn’t been rushed into it. The circumstances which led to her deciding on a termination had not changed. But not a good idea to bring up posters from other threads don’t you think? Particularly if you’re going to misrepresent her.

I'm sorry, lyralalala. A close friend of mine had a terrifying suicidal episode last year, the trigger for which was being told by his mother during a row that she wished she'd had the abortion. I've read so many times on Mumsnet that "you'll regret having an abortion but you'll never regret your squishy baby once it's put in your arms" , and I always want to punch the computer screen because many women DO.

It's why I don't think that there's anything wrong with termination for "convenience". It's not a small or trivial thing for an "inconvenient" child to be brought into the world. My father was an inconvenient accident and he always knew it. When his time came to parent, he didn't have the resources to be a dad and he caused a lot of misery. Doesn't mean that termination is an option for everyone, and I will always support a woman's choice, whatever it is, in respect of her own body. But an "inconvenient" pregnancy is a far more serious and far-reaching matter than your shopping delivery turning up at the wrong time.

There’s nothing wrong with more support being available but said support should not take the form of an anti abortion agenda and should be dependent on women wishing to access it or not, not having it forced on them by law or stigma.

We can only make decisions based on our circumstances as they are, not necessarily as we want them to be because frankly that’s unrealistic. Sometimes these aren’t decisions we want to make, but they’re decisions that make the most sense for us. This is true throughout a lot of situations that can come up in life, not just in the case of unplanned/unwanted pregnancy.