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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

999 replies

Bere111 · 19/05/2019 10:41

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

OP posts:
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7
AsleepAllDay · 19/05/2019 14:26

Bore off

RussianSpamBot · 19/05/2019 14:26

I think that the point made upthread is very important and very valid, where someone said that when someone suffers a miscarriage, people say that the woman has lost a baby. They do not say she's lost an embryo or a foetus or anything else. This clearly shows that they believe that woman carry babies, not cells.

It doesn't though. Some people do think that, others don't but fall in with the language the woman herself is using out of sympathy for a person who is suffering.

The NHS can't say what percentage of women have an abortion for 'lifestyle reasons'. There are prescribed reasons that can be used and these include 'emotionally unable to continue with the pregnancy'. Now, that might mean 'I have 2 children and can't handle a 3rd', 'I just don't want to be a mother' or 'I'm not ready yet' but for some women it will mean 'I've been raped, but I don't want to have to say that', 'I'm in an abusive relationship and he won't let me use contraception' or even 'I'm emotionally unable to cope because I have been told this wanted baby will not survive.' or 'I will not be allowed to keep this baby as I am deemed a risk'.

Yes, this is also true. The OP was bullshitting with her 'stats' above. And one one of the permitted reasons for abortion in the Act is that continuing the pregnancy would be more dangerous than not. That covers basically every pregnancy. There's never not a medical reason.

BertrandRussell · 19/05/2019 14:26

The bottom line is that if you believe that any fertilised egg is the equivalent of a baby- which is a perfectly fine thing to believe, then you have to believe also that there can be no abortion at all for any reason. So you have to say no abortion, even in cases of rape and incest. You can’t say “I’m a pro lifer but......^ Own the logic of your position.

Biancadelrioisback · 19/05/2019 14:27

If I fell pregnant today I would have an abortion.

SpaceCadet4000 · 19/05/2019 14:28

I live in the US in a state where there are Alabama-esq bills being passed right now to restrict my right to choice, safety and bodily autonomy.

I fully welcome Mumsnetter posting, spreading awareness of, and contributing to the fight against the anti-choice movement. These posts help to call out the disinformation and propaganda that are being used to erode our rights. The OP is retorting many of the speaking points that they put out there to sway moderates.

This isn't just about abortion; these people have a fundamental belief that women are vessels for babies and that alone.

I am already struggling to find reproductive health care that isn't religious in my area. I know people whose healthcare plans do not cover contraceptives because the same people driving the Alabama shit get a religious exemption from the ACA. My local Planned Parenthood was recently set on fire and so few people locally even batted an eyelid. It doesn't even perform abortions...

dodgeballchamp · 19/05/2019 14:28

Why wouldn’t I be fine with it though pinkyyy? I became pregnant through a contraception failure. I don’t want children. I had no emotional connection to the foetus inside me. I wanted it removed so I could continue with my life as I want to live it. The only traumatic part for me was finding out I was pregnant!

TrendyNorthLondonTeen · 19/05/2019 14:28

"Are you aware that during a surgical abortion the baby is torn apart limb by limb and removed from the body?"

People still believe this propaganda bull shit?

Stillonly8am · 19/05/2019 14:28

"Is this one of those "pro-life yet anti benefits" attitudes where people would happily make women give birth to a baby they didn't want then go on to complain about women claiming benefits to stay afloat so they can bring up said child?"

Indeed. I see it all the time on MN:

Pregnant woman with an abusive DH and no money for another child is considering her options. Mumsnetters: "you can do this, OP! You'll never forgive yourself if you end your little baby's life. My niece had triplets by herself when she was 14 and completed her university degree in 18 months at the same time, so you'll be fine!"

Pregnant woman decides to keep her baby. Mumsnetters: "Congratulations, OP! You're a heroine! All of Mumsnet is behind you!"

Depressed woman posts that her abusive ex is using the kids to control her and won't pay any child support, so she's having to choose between food and heating. Mumsnetters: "I don't know why these women are so stupid as to keep on breeding with obviously horrible men. Why don't you just stop spreading your legs?"

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 19/05/2019 14:29

I wonder how many of the people posting are able to do so because at one point a predecessor was unable to get an abortion.

I'm one of these people, I suspect.

I also know my mother had a very hard life because of me and her life would have been very different had I noe been born.

I believe a woman must have the choice what to do with her body.

ZeldaPrincessOfHyrule · 19/05/2019 14:30

"when someone suffers a miscarriage, people say that the woman has lost a baby. They do not say she's lost an embryo or a foetus or anything else. This clearly shows that they believe that woman carry babies, not cells."

Pinky, that's nonsense. Bloody nonsense. A wanted pregnancy goes way beyond the number of weeks and days the woman is pregnant at that precise moment. It reaches far beyond birth even before birth has happened, as she bonds with her unborn child, plans for it, dreams for it, makes changes in her life for it and prepares for its arrival. When a miscarriage happens it's more than just a foetus, it's the love she is developing for her little one, it's names she'd chosen, it's the hours she's daydreamed about whether the future child will have her eyes or her hair colour. It's is not even slightly the same as terminating an unwanted pregnancy.

So when I tell a woman that I am so very sorry for the loss of her baby, I mean it, despite the fact that scientifically, it may have literally been a cluster of cells. Because I'm not a cunt. And when I support a friend through an abortion I respect her, I respect her decision and that it's her choice for her own body. Also because I'm not a cunt.

teyem · 19/05/2019 14:31

If a woman who has miscarried says "baby", I say "baby".

It's just a kindness afforded to those in pain to follow their lead, not an objective evaluation of the situation.

dreichuplands · 19/05/2019 14:31

I saw my dc at 6 weeks as I had an early internal scan due to fears I might have an ectopic pregnancy.
I was absolutely delighted to see their heartbeats as they were a much pregnancy.
But they were a small cell cluster with a little lightening zig zag representing the heart beat. They bore no physical resemblance to a baby what so ever.
I was told it was highly possible that at least one embryo would simply disappear before the 12 week scan.
They is some very emotive and unhelpful language used around this issue.
Women need to be allowed to manage their own bodies. I notice living in the US that it is those that push removing women's control of their bodies hardest also push removing support for vulnerable families hardest too.

bee222 · 19/05/2019 14:33

When I had my miscarriage no one said ‘sorry you lost an embryo’, most people acknowledged that id lost a baby, and rightly so

They said the same to me 3 weeks ago when I had my miscarriage. I was 8 weeks and I called it my baby because I wanted it since the very day I saw 2 lines on my test. I'm not actually stupid enough to believe it was an actual baby inside me at that stage. I know that is was still an embryo at that stage. My brain knows that medically it was a bunch of cells at that stage because I believe in this thing called SCIENCE.

AsleepAllDay · 19/05/2019 14:34

The sad fact is that women are being prevented from having safe, legal abortions with enough funding to ensure they have the counselling, after care and right procedure. That's what an abortion ban does. Abortions will still happen in Alabama - they will be done by doctors in secret, with equipment and advice limited to what they can provide in secret. More women will be criminalised for making choices about their bodies and go o prison.

All of these arguments about the sanctity of human life are bullshit when you consider what women will now be put through.

Pinkyyy · 19/05/2019 14:34

@TheSmallAssassin that's absolutely ludicrous and there lies the issue with all the pro-choicers who try and say that these babies are not babies.

TheSmallAssassin · 19/05/2019 14:37

I wonder how many of the people posting are able to do so because at one point a predecessor was unable to get an abortion.

We'll never know, @Oliversmumsarmy, because this isn't Sliding Doors. Some people wouldn't exist, but we wouldn't miss their existence and neither would they, because they wouldn't have existed. We're all here by chance.

Endofthedays · 19/05/2019 14:37

Pinky, I will ask again, if these babies are not your responsibility, why are you offering opinions on what happens to them?

elsabadogigante · 19/05/2019 14:37

So spot on, Still. People also still believe that there's a generous benefits system and daily spout 'you can get tax credits' which you cannot anymore on new claims and also UC payments don't pay more for more than 2 children born after 2017 but anyone who comes on saying they want to terminate because they can't afford another child gets all the anecdotes and 'you can do this' and 'you never regret a baby'.

Stillonly8am · 19/05/2019 14:38

"The NHS can't say what percentage of women have an abortion for 'lifestyle reasons'."

Yup. I knew a woman who got pregnant after a one night stand with her ex, who penetrated her without a condom when she'd asked him not to. He even gloated over the trouble she'd be in if she were pregnant. Yet her subsequent abortion would probably get classified as a "social" abortion, because we don't have the right conversations about consent.

BlueThang · 19/05/2019 14:40

I can't be bothered to read the whole thread as you've started by lying when you say you are neither pro-life or pro-choice. It's very obvious which side you stand on based on every single one of the points you've raised. YABU.

NitrousOxide · 19/05/2019 14:41

OP: “I just don’t see pregnant as an ‘ooops’ any more.”

Also OP: “I fell pregnant by accident with ds1”

🙄

BertrandRussell · 19/05/2019 14:41

Yes- the way Mumsnet piles in to encourage women in impossible situations to keep pregnancies when it is obvious that she is not in a practical or psychological situation to take care of it or herself is terrifying.

sheettent · 19/05/2019 14:42

Actually all of my much wanted babies I miscarried were all called 'spontaneous abortions' by my care providers. No 'baby' there. So please fuck off.

mollysshadow · 19/05/2019 14:43

Pinkyy - the % of abortions as previously said, are based on reported rapes. Not the vast numbers that go unreported due to trauma, abuse or simply not being believed. That 1% figure is utter bullshit.

TheSmallAssassin · 19/05/2019 14:44

Why's it ludicrous, @pinkyyy? The embryo/baby doesn't care what we call it, it doesn't know either way.
The fact is, whatever the outcome, it is always an embryo, but we are mindful of the hopes and feelings of the women who miscarry and so we call it a baby. That doesn't seem ludicrous to me.