To cut my nose off to spite my face just to make a point? Work related.

[QueenofmyPrinces]

I’m feeling so torn about something that’s happening at work....

I’m a nurse and for the last 6 months I’ve been starting to implement a massive change to one of the services that we provide and it has got the potential to be something really amazing. It involves new policies being written, new care plans being created and it means giving some teaching to other members of staff and doctors - in other departments as well as my own. I’m doing it alongside my Manager but it’s my “baby” as such and implementing it and all the changes that go along with it is definitely above my pay grade. However, it’s something I’m really passionate about and so I have thrown myself into it.

A month or so ago there came an opportunity for a promotion so myself and two other nurses went for it. I was by far the most experienced and maybe I naively thought that all the work I’d been doing on the new project would earn me a step up the pay scale.

However, they gave the position to another nurse and although I really get on with him, he’s been qualified 10 years less than me, and is not particularly thought highly of by other staff in a professional capacity. As a person he’s a really nice guy, I socialise with him out of work sometimes with other colleagues and I generally have nothing against him.

I was understandably very hurt though when he got the job over me and although I know NHS interviews are points based and so he obviously said more buzz words in the interview than I did but it still feels so unfair.

My issue is that my Manager has been in touch to ask how far along I’ve gotten with implementing the new changes to the service that I’ve been working on and asking when we can meet up to discuss what my next steps are to getting the changes put into practice.

I honestly feel like telling her I’m done with it and that if I’m not deemed to be “senior staff material” then why should I be doing all this work for her benefit?

It sounds really petty I know. It just feels like I’m being taken advantage of and if there’s no reward or recognition for any of this work I’ve been doing then what’s the point?

I feel like telling her to have her newly appointed senior staff member do it because I don’t see why I should put myself out anymore (I know how childish I sound).

It’s so hard because it’s a project I’m passionate about but at the same time I just feel so angry.

My DH absolutely thinks I should tell them to shove it.

But am I cutting off my nose to spite my face by no longer doing something I’m passionate about just to make a point?

I don’t know. I feel confused and torn.

I think onanotherrain is right, I've not seen sexism but being in a job a long time, having a wide experience, knowing the ward inside out, getting on with your patients and colleagues, spending time updating yourself with courses, helping to implement change, covering sickness, staying late, going in early, not having breaks, showing management/cqc round when the ward managers are on days off or have gone home, getting the crap end of holiday weeks are not a good reason to get promoted. It seems to be that they already know who they want and what management potential that candidate has. I don't see many older staff getting promoted, maybe they have to consider how many years they can get out of you before you finally collapse in a big heap.

I think successfully completing this project will give you a fantastic talking point in future interviews. Conversely, throwing your toys out of the pram will give a very poor impression of you to management.

I think this could be a real wake up call to work on your interview skills. Yes, it sounds like a flawed process but you can learn how to make the process work to your advantage next time. I also think they may have preferred a candidate who works longer hours. Have you asked for feedback from the interviewers?

Op I'm a nurse consultant in the NHS, unfortunately I'm only too aware of this happening repeatedly. I experienced the same 18 years ago as a band 6 going for a management 7, I'd also implemented a lot in the department . I approached senior management, the RCN and asked to see my score sheet from interview. Instead of getting clear reasons I was immediately branded a trouble maker which stayed with me for years. In other proffesions I'd say absolutely go for it, but knowing the system can be incredibly unfair I'd just let it go, sorry. Seen too many other nurses regret taking action.

As a side note why don't you just ask to see your interview score sheet first and be taken through it? Maybe all will be clear if your interview technique is below par, which would likely lose you the post if the other candidate performed well. This way it doesn't need to be made into a big deal

Forget pride, forget “doing the right thing”. If you stop, it will be handed to him and he will get the credit for your work so far.

Keep on with it, take the lead on it and make sure everyone knows you did it.

Definitely speak with your manager about not getting the promotion as something doesn’t seem right, if it is as you have explained it. No amount of buzz words would see a promotion given to someone with ten years less experience.

Learn from the experience and look at how you might improve your interview skills. Men often do better than women on presentations as they come over as more confident. You could get some training, or join Toastmasters International (public speaking clubs) like I did.

Otherwise, carry on with the project and look for any opportunity for senior management to hear how successful it is - from you.

Apparently out of 100 he got 82 and I got 71.

It’s not the fact he got promoted that I’m angry about as I know it’s all point based and he got more so it’s right he got the job, it’s just the unfairness of it all that I’m struggling to cope with.

From my interview experience, they like when you use a previous scenario that you've actually experienced.

E.g the keys to the meds going missing.

How did you answer that?

Has something equally as dangerous happened where you've shown that you could take control, cover all bases, mitigate risks, ensure patient safety etc?

It could be as loosely based as being completely understaffed, so you didn't have the usual 2 nurse check on the meds. Or something similar. How did you react and manage that situation? Then apply it to the specific example given.

If you want to tell us how you answered the questions, we might be able to see how you might have done better.

Another mistake I've seen people make is, in a muddled attempt to highlight how much work they're doing on a project etc., they come out with things like 'It's extremely stressful'. Which would make an interviewer think - she's not handling this well.

Also - as I presume this role was moving into people management - how did you answer the question about repeat absenteeism?

So the first thing you need to be doing is putting your personal feelings to one side and making yourself be heard professionally. Deal with things calmly, rationally and dispassionately and you will get a lot of respect and be listened to.

You need to make anybody senior to you aware that you want a promotion, you also need to make them justify why he was chosen over you and question why interview technique seems to be valued over skills, knowledge, experience etc. Make yourself heard (professionally) so that when the next promotion opportunity arises they have all this information about what a valuable member of staff you are in their head even if the interview questions avoid the subjects.

As for the project I think you need to explain, 'I am very passionate about this project and I want to continue working on it and see it implemented successfully as I can see how this is going to have a powerful impact for patients. However, I do want it to be acknowledged that I am currently taking on a lot of responsibility above my pay grade for this and i do feel like my efforts should be recognised and rewarded.

Also I was taught from someone with a similar experience any PFF’s put a footer on in light grey with your name, date and a version no - you can’t see it until it prints down...

what published papers have influenced the profession in the last ten years. There was also a question about the Care Quality Commission and public trust in the profession.

These three were ones where you could have referred heavily to the work you're doing on X project.

E.g. A paper which particularly influenced me and my drive to implement X project was ABC. The recommendations were X & Y and I'm implementing them in X project now.
CQC - I feel Project X will raise the standard in our hospital in line with CQC proposals - expand on why
Public Trust - The aim of Project X which I AM TAKING THE LEAD ON IMPLEMENTING, is to raise the bar in terms of the service we offer patients and I feel will strongly influence public trust in the profession. Expand.

I'm not a nurse, so I don't know specifics of the role (apart from being a patient too many damned times), but that seemed like an open-ended interview where you could refer things back to your extensive experience on several occasions.

In my e.g. you're heavily mentioning YOUR INVOLVEMENT in this project which ties in with all the aims/goals of the trust. That would have earned you brownie points I think.

The interviews I get the job from, are the ones where I can successfully refer back to specific relevant experience I have.

Same sort of thing happened me - though it was a small company and job promotion much less informal than the NHS by the sounds of it. People are absolute back stabbing bastards . Even the seemingly nicest ones. Are you sure your manager didn't want you staying where you were to finish the project so she could take some credit for it.

I initiated and delivered a project from scratch at my old work - it was a huge change and a great success. On the back of it my immediate manager got made permanent and fulltime I was hoping for the position it opened up as I was the only internal candidate. I didn't even get an interview as it turned out my lovely friendly immediate manager had taken it on herself to take the full credit for my project from the beginning and my name hadn't even been mentioned further up the food chain. She then persuaded them that the job that opened up would be better if they advertised for a particular skill set that I didn't qualify for as the last thing she wanted was me in the interview room explaining how I was involved in what they thought was her project. I left.

Maybe I cut off my nose to spite my face but I was fucked if they were going to use my talents and do me over. Things went horribly down hill from there as the woman in question couldn't sustain the success as she was lazy and lacked any creativity.

Trust your experience, trust your dedication, trust your hard work, trust how many more years you have in the profession. All the things that you highlight he didn't have on you, you should have exemplified in the interview.

I completely see your point asdou about the CQC (I did mention that in my presentation) but the point system does not take into account anything I have done or want to do. I could have spoke for 20 minutes about the changes I’m implementing and how much it will benefit the patients etc but it wouldn’t have earned me a single point

I think I’m just going to have to accept the situation, be honest with my manager about how I’m feeling, carry on with what I’m doing but keep my eye out for other jobs because Lord knows my contributions aren’t going to get recognised in my current job.

It's how you spin the answer!

it wouldn’t have earned me a single point

You're being silly if you think that. It's quite likely Mr. Z was a better bullshitter than you. Of course your experience on this project is relevant!

Keep it relevant to the question, but refer to your own experience. That would be my mantra.

Might you have fallen down on your people management skills? Your experience and knowledge is possibly far more extensive than Mr. Z, but he may have shone in how he said he would handle managing people etc.

People management is a whole minefield of bollocks anyway. Have you the opportunity in nursing to become more senior in a more specialised area, rather than in people management?

I feel that there are some people who are brilliant managers though technically mediocre, and other people who are technically brilliant but completely incompetent at managing people.
Maybe you need to figure out where you sit on that. You seem to enjoy getting your teeth into a project, but maybe are not so happy to collaborate.

It's difficult to tell, as nursing is way outside my sphere of knowledge.

I think it's very common to answer the question you wish you had been asked rather than focusing on giving an answer the panel can award you the most points for.