To cut my nose off to spite my face just to make a point? Work related.

[QueenofmyPrinces]

I’m feeling so torn about something that’s happening at work....

I’m a nurse and for the last 6 months I’ve been starting to implement a massive change to one of the services that we provide and it has got the potential to be something really amazing. It involves new policies being written, new care plans being created and it means giving some teaching to other members of staff and doctors - in other departments as well as my own. I’m doing it alongside my Manager but it’s my “baby” as such and implementing it and all the changes that go along with it is definitely above my pay grade. However, it’s something I’m really passionate about and so I have thrown myself into it.

A month or so ago there came an opportunity for a promotion so myself and two other nurses went for it. I was by far the most experienced and maybe I naively thought that all the work I’d been doing on the new project would earn me a step up the pay scale.

However, they gave the position to another nurse and although I really get on with him, he’s been qualified 10 years less than me, and is not particularly thought highly of by other staff in a professional capacity. As a person he’s a really nice guy, I socialise with him out of work sometimes with other colleagues and I generally have nothing against him.

I was understandably very hurt though when he got the job over me and although I know NHS interviews are points based and so he obviously said more buzz words in the interview than I did but it still feels so unfair.

My issue is that my Manager has been in touch to ask how far along I’ve gotten with implementing the new changes to the service that I’ve been working on and asking when we can meet up to discuss what my next steps are to getting the changes put into practice.

I honestly feel like telling her I’m done with it and that if I’m not deemed to be “senior staff material” then why should I be doing all this work for her benefit?

It sounds really petty I know. It just feels like I’m being taken advantage of and if there’s no reward or recognition for any of this work I’ve been doing then what’s the point?

I feel like telling her to have her newly appointed senior staff member do it because I don’t see why I should put myself out anymore (I know how childish I sound).

It’s so hard because it’s a project I’m passionate about but at the same time I just feel so angry.

My DH absolutely thinks I should tell them to shove it.

But am I cutting off my nose to spite my face by no longer doing something I’m passionate about just to make a point?

I don’t know. I feel confused and torn.

The key is to answer the question asked while tying it into what you want them to know.

"I would carry on with the project but would also start looking elsewhere for a job. I would let your manager know that you are doing this.
Imagine how good your project will look on your application."

Actually I'd not say anything to the manager about looking for a new job: that's something to keep under your hat until you are ready/after you've successfully delivered your project/received a better offer elsewhere. She may well have been sympathetic but that's not helpful to you and you may put yourself at a disadvantage.

I would also ask (more senior managers) for feedback and where you could interview better in future and other opportunities which you may be considered for.

Like your husband I also think it's a strange coincidence that a young, full time male, without your level of expertise, got the promotion ahead of the two more experienced part time females.

I'd also agree you should ensure your identity/stamp is all over this project to everyone including senior management as well as, suggested upthread, ensuring you have your initial drafts and updates (especially if you've worked on these out of your paid hours) as proof of your total responsibility for all stages of the project.

Good luck OP both for the successful implementation of your project and for future promotion and reward in the future. 🌹

Keep going and work on your project.

Do not let anything bring you down.

Be angry for one more day then be happy and positive. You werent doing this for a promotion, you were doing it to help people.

KEEP GOING!

On the face of it to me it does sound like the set up enabled subconscious sex discrimation because it gave a lot of weight to subjective answers rather than objective facts (your years experience etc). Is their a way to bring this to HR for the future? Do you have a women’s group or rep?

On the topic of your project. Do it because you’ll do it better and have something to be proud of. But I do think you should go back to the managers and ask them for feedback and say how disappointed you are. Let them know that if there isn’t a promotion in the pipeline they should expect you to move elsewhere. It’s hard and horrible but women get walked all over often because managers think men will leave and women won’t if they aren’t promoted.

I think if they had wanted you to get the job (as often happens in the NHS) they would have asked to follow up questions to get those buzzwords out of you.

It really sucks, that all promotions are based on interview points. It means that the best candidates don't get the job just because they don't interview well.

Maybe the interviewers and your Manager felt you were too valuable where you are:you so nd innovative and go getting. Speak to your Manager then HR if you don't feel your obvious talent & drive are going un rewarded. It's she who shots loudest in large organisations. Those who beaver away quietly get overlooked IME.

OP would you be happy with a salary raise or a bonus? Or did you really want to get into people management? Do you feel you'd be good at it?

Maybe the interviewers and your Manager felt you were too valuable where you are:you so nd innovative and go getting.

My colleague said something to me along these lines. The patient group that I’m working with are very vulnerable and although I’m extremely passionate about their diagnosis, not many others are. Apart from me, everyone else on the ward tries to avoid looking after these certain patients because it requires specialised knowledge and a level of understanding/empathy that most others can’t give. Looking after these patients is very time consuming, far more time consuming than any other kind of patient we have on the ward, and it involves having a lot of patience, knowledge, and genuinely caring about them to ensure they receive the best care. Everyone on the ward knows it’s my “thing” and that I’m the best as supporting these patients and so they are always allocated to me. I obviously don’t mind though because I love having these patients.

If I had have gone into a senior position it meant that my time with these patients would be dramatically reduced and I wouldn’t be apply to give them the same level of care that I do in my current role.

A colleague asked me why I was working so hard to implement changes to ensure the best care for these patients, but at the same time taking myself away from patient contact when I’m the best one at looking after them?

She had jokingly said that management wouldn’t want me to get a promotion because it means there’s nobody left on the shop floor (as it were) to look after these patients effectively.

I’d be good at people management but I don’t think it’s what I actually want to do.

What I want is a specialised role in the care of these patients but I doubt it will ever happen. Going for the ward promotion is really the only kind of promotion I can hope for if I stay working within this Trust. I guess by having the interview I wanted to see if I had it within me to get the promotion and that I would feel like I was valued by my managers.

I guess it backfired.

They see you as working FOR them and not as working WITH them
All your hard work will be credited to someone else and then you will have to train the person above you. Happens all the time.
The way I foiled it further happening to me was to only discuss plans in writing/emails and password protect all my documents.
Other than that, reassess what you from the role and back off from the ‘improvements’.that way the person they promote will have to ‘earn’ it!
Good luck

I'm sorry you didn't get this role you sound like you are a hardworking, committed & dedicated nurse. The NHS needs nurses like you.

I'm going to say a few things that you will either agree or disagree with:

it’s just the unfairness of it all that I’m struggling to cope with

Yes it's shit & unfair, but unfortunately when it comes to promotion it is never about fairness. Those days are long long gone. Give yourself some time to sit in your feelings, then dust yourself off and shake off the it's not fair mindset.

The advice given by asdou is SPOT ON.

I also agree that you could have shoe-horned all of your work experience and the project your currently working on into your answers.

I worked in the private sector before I started training to be a nurse, I was exposed to lots of career coaching & interview training. You scored 70 so you're not far off.

To succeed in being promoted to management, it's rubbish but, you do need to use the buzzwords. Last year a band 8 told me that the top 3 things she expects managers in her team to know are:

1. To demonstrate you are actively engaged in CPD (more than when you need to get signed off to renew your pin). Be aware of current research and initiatives. (student nurses are helpful with this).

1. You need to know what the current Cquin targets are.

1. You need to have an awareness of what is in the current NHS England plan and how this applies to your ward.

Please finish the project for your own self-esteem and for the benefit of your patients. Use the learnings to update your LinkedIn profile to showcase your CV, and skills and this project. Submit your project for the awards that have been recommended by other posters. Push yourself out of your comfort zone and start applying for jobs in other wards and trusts.

Ask for feedback to understand what you needed to do get a higher mark. Don't lament on unfairness and the other candidate being less experienced. Focus on you and the gaps in your skill set and ask for support to fill the gaps.

And don't forget to stand tall and proud in the fact that you are a nurse with 12 years service who is now ready to progress her career and make positive changes.

Good luck x

p.s. suggested journal's to read on a regular basis to keep abreast of current buzzwords etc are: the Lancet Review, the health/NHS section in the guardian.com,
www.kingsfund.org.uk/blognursing

As well as Nursing Times and Nursing Standards (you can access hard copies via the trust library or ask for an Athens password so you can access these publications online).

Sorry if you already know all of this - but somebody else reading this may also benefit.

Sorry for the long post & terrible grammar - ooops.

Length of service is misleading when it comes to ability but I can see why you're disappointed. I would be honest and say you're feeling very unappreciated re all the work you're doing going unrecognised despite going above and beyond your current pay grade. Ask for clear feedback re interview as you wish to progress in your career and need to know where you can grow so you can meet the needs of a more senior role (polite way to say "wtf do you want from me?!)

Depending on the response, go with that. Good luck op!

If I had have gone into a senior position it meant that my time with these patients would be dramatically reduced and I wouldn’t be apply to give them the same level of care that I do in my current role.

It doesn't sound like you actually want the more senior role at all. You want to continue doing your current role but with higher pay/more recognition. I wonder if that came across a bit in the interview?

From what you've written, I think a nurse practitioner role would be more up your street than ward management ( I've been an F Grade in the past). Keep the project going, see it through and use it to carve out a new role for yourself that keeps you working with this group of patients: it will give you a lot more job satisfaction than dealing with ward management problems. Good luck for the future, the NHS needs more dynamic staff like you.

Writing up new policies and care plans being created takes a lot of work and does it have to go through the development team? I wouldn't do it as a 5. If you enjoy working with a particular type of patient then have you done courses in that field. You could apply to become a specialist nurse, something like dementia specialist if thats what it is, nurse practitioner, if its something acute you can try outreach or a teaching role. What about community? Gp practice? what do you enjoy the most.

If you enjoy working with a particular type of patient then have you done courses in that field.

The unit I work on paid for me to go to a two day conference on it in London about three years ago and it was back then that whispers started going around that a specialist nurse post may be created. That role never materialised though.

I have since done study in the field in my own time and from that I now have a qualification related specifically to this condition and I work as a volunteer in the community to visit people in their homes who are having difficulties.

OP, I know it's frustrating (I'm public sector too) but it's not sexist, if anything these type of skills based interviews are intended to allow an even playing field with people who will have fewer years experience - eg those who have had to take career breaks or work part time due to caring responsibilities. It wont be personal - the managers aren't actually allowed to use their discretion in these type of interviews. They can't overule the scoring.
Get feedback from your interview, stick with your project and keep applying for things that come up. You sound like a fantastic nurse and if you are, you'll get a decent new job soon enough.

I must say you genuinely sound amazing OP and the interview process sounds bureaucratic and unfair. And very possibly sexist. What’s the gender pay gap like where you are?

Learn to plsy the game. Get to the top. Then change the game for the greater good. 🔝

What’s the gender pay gap like where you are?

Well there isn’t one really as it’s all NHS paybands so we are all on set amounts depending on what Band nurse we are.

On my unit both managers are female, and all four matrons are female. The ward has about 35 female nurses and this gentleman is the only male.

I don’t think it’s sexist but obviously he has the better appeal than us because he does work full time and will never have childcare issues to contend with as management know there is a SAHM on the scene.

Of all the Band 6 nurses, of which there are about 14, none of them have young children and they all work full time.

Man that sucks, that must have been very disappointing. You’ve got some great advice from people here who clearly know more than me and I’m in Australia where it doesn’t seem to be as full on. I could be wrong.
As a fellow nurse, you do these projects because you do genuinely care for your patients and their outcomes. You may not get the recognition you deserve but what nurse does with all the shit we need to deal with?
Your determination will change people lives and that is the most important thing. I’m not trying to be flippant, I have terrible days, but ultimately being a nurse is a privelidge.
I’ll go now before anyone tells me to shut up 😀😀😀

Bit convenient how the only man in the ward of 35 achieved promotion against a woman with far more experience and is working on an project to improve practice.

A woman working in a male only environment is fighting to get to the top. A man working in a female dominated environment is seen as an asset and stands out in a good way.

If I was you OP I would be looking to leave. You are not going to achieve the career progression you want in that team.

I would also take a step back from this project unless a pay rise or a new job title is given. They are taking advantage of your kindness.

IME, and IMO men are always overpromoted in nursing and teaching. More so in nursing.