To cut my nose off to spite my face just to make a point? Work related.

[QueenofmyPrinces]

I’m feeling so torn about something that’s happening at work....

I’m a nurse and for the last 6 months I’ve been starting to implement a massive change to one of the services that we provide and it has got the potential to be something really amazing. It involves new policies being written, new care plans being created and it means giving some teaching to other members of staff and doctors - in other departments as well as my own. I’m doing it alongside my Manager but it’s my “baby” as such and implementing it and all the changes that go along with it is definitely above my pay grade. However, it’s something I’m really passionate about and so I have thrown myself into it.

A month or so ago there came an opportunity for a promotion so myself and two other nurses went for it. I was by far the most experienced and maybe I naively thought that all the work I’d been doing on the new project would earn me a step up the pay scale.

However, they gave the position to another nurse and although I really get on with him, he’s been qualified 10 years less than me, and is not particularly thought highly of by other staff in a professional capacity. As a person he’s a really nice guy, I socialise with him out of work sometimes with other colleagues and I generally have nothing against him.

I was understandably very hurt though when he got the job over me and although I know NHS interviews are points based and so he obviously said more buzz words in the interview than I did but it still feels so unfair.

My issue is that my Manager has been in touch to ask how far along I’ve gotten with implementing the new changes to the service that I’ve been working on and asking when we can meet up to discuss what my next steps are to getting the changes put into practice.

I honestly feel like telling her I’m done with it and that if I’m not deemed to be “senior staff material” then why should I be doing all this work for her benefit?

It sounds really petty I know. It just feels like I’m being taken advantage of and if there’s no reward or recognition for any of this work I’ve been doing then what’s the point?

I feel like telling her to have her newly appointed senior staff member do it because I don’t see why I should put myself out anymore (I know how childish I sound).

It’s so hard because it’s a project I’m passionate about but at the same time I just feel so angry.

My DH absolutely thinks I should tell them to shove it.

But am I cutting off my nose to spite my face by no longer doing something I’m passionate about just to make a point?

I don’t know. I feel confused and torn.

Why not approach some of the NHS Innovation teams and put your idea to them? If it really is a great project, they will take your idea and shape it with a view to rolling this out across the country. This is how our nursing teams get the recognition they deserve, and get put forward for the HSA awards, innovator awards, nursing times etc. There are many out there - try contacting your local Academic Health & Science Network, or others such as MediTech, MediPlex etc. Don't keep such a good idea to yourself, and certainly don't let anyone else take the credit. The NHS needs nurses like yourselves!

Or based on what red said above, apply to a different trust? is that even an option for you

My husband has made comments about me doing it.

I’ve been a nurse for 12 years, and for 8 years of my career I have worked on my current ward and have gone above and beyond for them many times - not just this project I’m currently implementing.

For a man who has been qualified for just over two years (and only worked on our ward for a year) to be promoted over me, well it hurts.

My husband says life is too short to work somewhere where you aren’t appreciated.

This won't be your last opportunity for promotion, and when you are next at an interview you will be able to draw on this project for evidence. You would be daft not to see it through.

If the people who didn't give you the job get to hear about it they will think it evidence that they made the right decision.

I had something similar about 20 years ago and walked out.

Young lad been in the job about 6 months was promoted to be my manager.

I asked why and was told it was because he would have to support a family one day.

People I knew who stayed said he couldn’t manage anyone and he stunk as well.

Are you sure your manager isn’t going to take all the credit. Something he couldn’t do if you were in a more senior role?

Hi OP, another public sector person here, though not nursing.

Having seen a lot of under qualified men get promoted over more effective/skilled/qualified women, I just wanted to say that you have to accept and play the game of the interview process. Stick with your passion project, but at the same time find a coach/mentor/friend to do some intense interview practice with. It’s easy to be dismissive of ‘buzzwords’ but really it’s about finding a compelling, natural way to frame and talk about your experiences and do yourself justice. I have found that some people (often men) are just naturally really good at this, whereas others are naturally self deprecating and undersell their contribution - and have to learn a different approach for interviews.

Combine that with the results of your project and I reckon you’ll get promoted like a shot next time!

Also something to consider is moving to primary care. There are a few incentives now for nurses looking to make that change, and there are lots of training opportunities coming up for PC nurses as NHS England has released extra funding. You could also consider taking your skills into management positions, perhaps for your local CCG or GP Federation.

No part of the interview is about how long you’ve been qualified for, or experiences you've had in your career, or what you think you can bring to the role, or how you envisage your career developing and how you can enhance the care the ward provides etc etc

Lordy. Heaven help us. The technocrats and managerialists win.

This has happened to me. No real response other than performance at interview on the day. Interestingly it soon became apparent how useless the successful candidate was. I carried on doing what I needed to do, plus extras whilst seething inside and being as unhelpful as I could get away with with the successful candidate. Eventually I got promotions to take me to a much higher level than them. I would ask for feedback, carry on with your project, but to suit you, and look for a role elsewhere if you can

but really it’s about finding a compelling, natural way to frame and talk about your experiences and do yourself justice. I have found that some people (often men) are just naturally really good at this, whereas others are naturally self deprecating and undersell their contribution

I was all ready to sell myself, to talk about my experiences spanning my career so far and to definitely sell myself regarding this new project I’m working on but like I said, none of that matters, it isn’t even asked about.

I genuinely thought that one of the first questions would be what qualities do I have that would make a good Band 6? Why do i deserve the role? What do you think you can bring to the role etc etc

I guess I thought clinical experience, personal qualities and passion and drive would be a big factor in who deserves a promotion but obviously not....

I guess I thought clinical experience, personal qualities and passion and drive would be a big factor in who deserves a promotion but obviously not....

I sympathise. I suppose this type of interview is an attempt to be fair, but my experience of the public sector was that it led to those who talked the talk being promoted, not those with experience, proven ability and willingness to go the extra mile.
That's why there are so many appalling managers in the public sector, and so many demoralised staff at lower levels in the hierarchy.

I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes. Speak to management as advised, maybe, and carry on with my project but if you definitely want promotion apply for posts elsewhere if that's possible.

Finish the project as it may be useful in the future should any other senior positions become available.
If you throw the project in now, it may look like you can't stick to something or you fail to deliver, which would look bad if you try again for promotion.
Rise above it and use it for your own advantage.

I’ve been in this exact position. It really sucks. Can you look at your job description and that of a band six and see if you are already doing the work of a 6? If so you may actually be able to fight to have a grade uplift although it would be really helpful if your manager supported this fully.

I did stay, mainly because it suited me personally. I also carved out another very specialist niche within our area and created a role for myself which was eventually recognised as a band 7. It was a slog.

I sympathise so much. People outside the nhs may not believe just how frequently strong candidates are overlooked by a weaker candidate who ‘interviewed well ‘ despite everyone knowing the individuals and their work very well.

Stick with the project you love and make it a success, great on your cv. Fight to be recognised for the work. When something better comes along you will be in a good position.

I was civil service and didn't get the 'promotion' into the job I had been doing for a year. In the interview I had given lots of examples of the work I had been doing to justify the promotion, but it wasn't enough. The job went to an external candidate with less experience but who had been prepped for her interview by a senior colleague.

Next time the same job came up (there were 4 identical positions) a colleague sat with me and explained how talking about what you had achieved just wasn't enough. You had to treat it as a game. Buzzword Bingo, he called it. I went through all my notes, inserting the relevant buzzwords into each section, and highlighted them so they were easy to spot whilst in the interview. I found the interview hilarious. I watched as each of the panel started furiously scribbling each time I said one of the buzzwords, and ignored things where I didn't, even though it was directly relevant to the question. Once I had cottoned on to it the rest of the interview was just a game to see just how many of the buzzwords I could get in, whilst still sounding natural. That time I got the job. There had been next to no difference in my experience and the examples I had given, I had just explained them slightly differently, making sure I mentioned the key words they were after. It was ridiculous, but that is how that sort of interview seems to work. If you use the correct words, it is easier for the interviewers to give the point/tick the box etc, so you get more credit than someone giving the same answer but without the buzzwords.

My DH has also passed comment that it’s a strange how me, and the other rejected candidate (also very experienced), are both women with young children who work part time whereas the successful candidate is a full time working male with a SAHM at home with his children.

I told him that in a generally female focused profession it’s very unlikely sexism would come into play, but he said it’s just a strange coincidence.

Would the guy who got the job over you actually be delivering the training? Once you'd finalised it?

Finish the project.

Look for a new job.

Don't be surprised if your manager didn't actually want you to be promoted so she scored you low to keep you in your current role.

'Continue and you have something to hang your hat on in future interviews, wherever they may be...'

This was my first thought.

Did you only implement the change for a pay rise?

Would the guy who got the job over you actually be delivering the training? Once you'd finalised it?

No - he won’t have anything to do with implementing the changes or the teaching.

He’s just a member of the initially trained team but everything so far has been down to me and future implementation/training will be down to me too.

I spent a year working on a large project. A manager published my work on the intranet, passing it off as her own.
I put it on my cv as I had all the original drafts.
I was subsequently head hunted for a senior post elsewhere.
Manager was rumbled and sacked.
Keep going OP, but don't share any more than necessary.
Keep your research and draft documents safe.
Update your manager with emails that make it clear that it is your own work.

Hm just typed a post that went missing so apols if this appears twice!

I’m not in nursing, so this may not apply to your interviews, but where I am you never get directly asked about your experience or what you bring, but you have to show it in your answers to other questions

So Q. What do you think about issue X

A. I have dealt with X many times many times in my career. The important thing about it is Y which I did when I had experience Z. This was challenging because of ABC, but I was successful, and this means I am well placed to deal with X in future.

Seems v artificial, but is what works where I am. I know it feels unjust to have a system that doesn’t let you show your worth, but if you can accept the system and work with it then it becomes much easier.

The other thing I’d suggest is volunteering to be on interview panels if you can - quickest way to get a sense of what a good interview is like.

Apols for chirpy suggestions- you are completely entitled to be pissed off about the situation - it’s rubbish.

Did you only implement the change for a pay rise?

Absolutely not - I’m doing all this to ensure a certain patient group get the best care possible because at the moment the care they receive is really inadequate and it’s not right.

However - when I first started talking making changes I in no way envisaged it being blown up to the size it now is and I didn’t think so much responsibility and work would be put upon my shoulders. What I’m doing is really way over my pay grade and imI guess I just thought I would get some recognition for what I’m doing.

More likely they wanted to keep your skills for this task that you are midway on.
Take it as a compliment, although do have the discussion so they know you have higher ambitions.

I would really struggle with this.
I get what everyone (literally everyone!) says on here, but we aren't talking about her saying stick your job...this is a project over and above her day to day job for which she is not being recompensed.
I would have to have some sort of conversation with someone trustworthy about not being good enough to be promoted, and how the promoted chap should therefore take over this project...
But I get that's not the general consensus!

Can you give us some examples of the questions you were asked?

I'm really curious as the NHS usually interview based on the competencies in the job description and look for STAR replies. If they've changed I'd be lost at an interview.