To cut my nose off to spite my face just to make a point? Work related.

[QueenofmyPrinces]

I’m feeling so torn about something that’s happening at work....

I’m a nurse and for the last 6 months I’ve been starting to implement a massive change to one of the services that we provide and it has got the potential to be something really amazing. It involves new policies being written, new care plans being created and it means giving some teaching to other members of staff and doctors - in other departments as well as my own. I’m doing it alongside my Manager but it’s my “baby” as such and implementing it and all the changes that go along with it is definitely above my pay grade. However, it’s something I’m really passionate about and so I have thrown myself into it.

A month or so ago there came an opportunity for a promotion so myself and two other nurses went for it. I was by far the most experienced and maybe I naively thought that all the work I’d been doing on the new project would earn me a step up the pay scale.

However, they gave the position to another nurse and although I really get on with him, he’s been qualified 10 years less than me, and is not particularly thought highly of by other staff in a professional capacity. As a person he’s a really nice guy, I socialise with him out of work sometimes with other colleagues and I generally have nothing against him.

I was understandably very hurt though when he got the job over me and although I know NHS interviews are points based and so he obviously said more buzz words in the interview than I did but it still feels so unfair.

My issue is that my Manager has been in touch to ask how far along I’ve gotten with implementing the new changes to the service that I’ve been working on and asking when we can meet up to discuss what my next steps are to getting the changes put into practice.

I honestly feel like telling her I’m done with it and that if I’m not deemed to be “senior staff material” then why should I be doing all this work for her benefit?

It sounds really petty I know. It just feels like I’m being taken advantage of and if there’s no reward or recognition for any of this work I’ve been doing then what’s the point?

I feel like telling her to have her newly appointed senior staff member do it because I don’t see why I should put myself out anymore (I know how childish I sound).

It’s so hard because it’s a project I’m passionate about but at the same time I just feel so angry.

My DH absolutely thinks I should tell them to shove it.

But am I cutting off my nose to spite my face by no longer doing something I’m passionate about just to make a point?

I don’t know. I feel confused and torn.

I hadn't realised you were doing this project in your own time. That's completely unreasonable. If it's a priority for her, she needs to create room in your day for you to do it during your hours.

I would also raise the issue of you attending the meetings - approach it politely and without blame, and explain that you're feeling rather disconnected from the decision making, but being expected to do all the implementation. You'd like to be seen as a member of the project team and begin attending meetings again.

Ah that is different to my project, I have a lot of autonomy and my manager takes no credit, it’s all mine. He always supports me, offers regular praise and thanks me for the work I do. My senior managers know what I do.

I would never go an extra mile for someone else to take the credit and freeze me out. If I have an idea and someone else is leading on it I will offer evidence or raise questions but always in an email and copy in whoever is managing the project. But not do the work for them.

At your meeting on Monday I would be asking for more involvement and visibility to continue. Otherwise I would be happy that I had started something that will make changes but if my manager was presenting it as her idea / work I would bow out.

You’re possibly too useful where you are and so they didn’t want to move you onto something new?

Similar happened to me in another public service. A boss taking credit for stuff, gradually took on more and more, even some strategic stuff, then when it came to a restructure I wasn’t even considered for the areas I had been working on. 2 weeks after the new structure was active the same manager approached me in relation to the same work. Her words were ‘it’s really expensive (2k a day) to buy in this skill, and you have it so we would be stupid to not use you. I declined and as it had never been formally recognised I couldn’t be forced to do it. I think it’s widespread in public services (often seems to be women kneecapping other women?) and now I don’t do anything over and above. The interview processes look for buzzwords from a ‘competency framework’ that you can make up/steal answers for and as there’s so much taking the credit for other people’s accomplishments it’s just not worth giving them you passion and enthusiasm. Other pp’s say it looks unprofessional if you back off. No, it just pisses off the seniors that were using your efforts to boost themselves. You can speak to your union too. I did manage to get an honorarium via my union as a token thank you for the work carried out.

You have been treated unfairly by the sounds of it, however, as an aside, surely as a nurse you should be driven by wanting to raise standards of care for patients, not for what you can gain personally.

That is all very altruistic, user1493282396
but the people that come up with good ideas and put in all the hard work deserve to be recognised and promoted.
The problem with people stealing ideas and policies is that they often lack the ability to implement them safely and effectively.
They put patients at risk.
I have seen it happen.
The problem is that those people don't know what they don't know IYSWIM.
They are dangerous.

Why on earth are you considering working over the weekend on this? Wait until Monday's meeting to sort out additional time being given and then ask all the pertinent questions you've raised on here. It does sound like she's going to take all the credit if you're not careful.

Hmm given to a man younger than you....... that’s a red flag in my book regardless of points systems. Why not ask why you didn’t get it and take it from there.

Have you asked for feedback from the interview? Ask why your colleague was given the position instead of you even though you have more experience?
As for the project, sit down and discuss this with your manager. Tell them that you have put a lot of time and effort into this, above your hours and what would be expected of your pay grade. That you are disappointed this wasn't recognised at the interview. And that you'd like to know how things will progress if you continue with the project, will your work be recognised and rewarded?

I can totally understand why you are upset, I’m public sector too and I have been in a similar situation.

I agree with other posters that you need to raise your profile. Don’t give it up, you’ll regret it, keep going, show resilience, be the better person and next time you’ll get it x

Could it be possible the management has something else by way of promotion in line for you. Happened to me a long time ago.

Ah, now you've said she's taken your ideas, has you doing the work in your own time, presents them as hers excluding you from any relevant meetings, that's a whole new kettle of fish. She's fucked you over. I'd polish up my CV & quietly move on, after insisting the remaining work is done only in work time. Patients will still benefit.

I work for the NHS and know how frustrating it is that they go purely on interview and not on prior knowledge of your performance (I’ve been in a similar position of being passed up for colleagues I was sure I could have done a better job than!). But if this is a great project that you’ve been so invested in I would encourage you to continue working hard on it because that will reflect so much better on you as a team member. Speak to your boss and ask for some feedback from the interview and say you were disappointed and will go for any future opportunities. But don’t stop working on it as it sounds like something you’re passionate about and you don’t want people to think you are petty or spiteful! X

OP I can’t see if anyone else has asked, but why has it taken you 8 years to apply for a promotion? Have you applied before?

I can see why you're disappointed and gutted... especially for the project if not for the lack of promotion.

I haven't rtft but I'd tell them to f off and look for another job if possible.

Ask for feedback as to why you didn't get the job. Sorry but males tend to bt about how great they are whilst females are more timid. How was he so much better than other candidates, who does he know etc? Hopefully he is the best person but definitely ask for feedback.

Thank you everyone for your comments.

I haven’t applied for a band 6 prior to now for various reasons. I have had 3 jobs across my 8 years and have also taken time out twice to have my children.

I have decided to carry on with the project bwcause I’m so proud of what I have achieved so far that I simply can’t step away from it. What I will be doing from now on though is making sure that top management are aware of what I personally am doing so they can see how the majority of the new changes are down to me and that it’s me who is doing all the work.

When I have my meeting on Monday with my line manager I will be honest with her about how I feel and ask where she sees my career progressing to in light of me implementing these changes.

This Is managerialism and the public sector on skates. Apply elsewhere. Go private. Get some help with interview technique and, whatever you do, don’t let the person who got your job and now wants you to do the work for them so they can get the credit get away with it. It only encourages the others and rubs the noses of all the dedicated, hardworking professionals who are thus treated in the dirt.

She thinks you can be used, abused and by past.

You will need to make it very clear that ANYTHING you are doing going forward for this project will clearly involve you at meetings and be fully accredited to you.

Do not allow yourself to be bullied by her.

Confirm the meeting by email to her later and copy the other people involved.
If she is stroppy about this.

Go above her head and inform management the reason you will not continue and inform them that this work has been done on your time.
Protect your work via PDF as others have advised.
Then, start actively looking for another job.
Do not let her bully you.

Best of luck. You sound like a great woman and nurse. It does not mean you have to be a door mat.

So sorry to hear of your predicament - had a similar situation on another industry years ago where they wanted to keep me down to do the actual work and wanted a man as the senior as he “had more presence” in their view - didn’t have it in writing or would have taken action. I left soon after.

I would recommend:

1. Continue with the project but make sure every document includes your name and is a protected document - either protected for editing so that your Manager will have a read only copy or as a pdf (remember some people do have pdf editor).

1. Make sure senior management and other parties involved are aware wherever possible that you are the driver for this project

1. Ask your manager for time to do the project work in your normal hours and ask to attend meetings in order that you can fulfil the detailed requirements more effectively

1. Park the fact of the colleague getting the job - what’s done is done and you can’t change that. However do think about your interview skills and knowledge, do get feedback, and ask to see the points scoring system so that you can understand it more clearly in the future.

1. When going in to interview prepare, prepare, prepare. Think of different scenarios that might come up, practice questions responses, read carefully the job description and underline key words that come up more regularly with the aim to see what their buzz words are

1. You can only control what you can control - not what you can’t. You are holding the keys of this project - don’t give them away needlessly - ie don’t just give it to someone else to take over but also see the value of your work and protect it.

Good luck.

ow it would be viewed: you threw your toys out of the pram when you didn't get the promotion you wanted- and most would take quite a dim view of it because its not seen as professional behaviour. Nor does it show strategic, logical thinking. It displays lack of commitment to something you say you are passionate about. And when the going gets tough/you don't get your own way/things don't go smoothy/you don't agree with a decision etc- will you behave in a similar manner. It might not be fair or reflect what you would do, but it raises the possibility in others minds.

This attitude is exactly why the NHS looses good staff. You simply cannot wring people dry and then slap them in the face and expect them to still come up smiling. It isn't professional and most other workplaces do not operate like this any more. Having agency is a key factor to a healthy and happy work-life. Draining people, giving them false hopes, using their hard work and empathy because you have the power and expecting it to continue is never sustainable.

Missing an 'H' there from a pp in italics.

I honestly do think that the NHS has completely bypassed the latest research in healthy workplaces. I was told to never work for them because I am too vocal which I completely took on board but it does say a lot about those who do have power in these structures.

I work in the NHS (medical not nursing) so a couple of thoughts

The interview

• interviewing and appointing in the NHS in general has become much more rigorous in recent years - it's mostly no longer 'who you know' and that is a good thing.
• that being the case all candidates are asked the same questions and the points system has to be transparent.
• many Trusts are moving towards value-based / competency-based interviews - does the candidate understand the competencies required at x management level? and does the candidate show that (s)he holds the values that the Trust thinks are important? While I'm not in nursing I have heard from my senior nursing colleagues that in our trust at least this has led to improved recruitment and also retention.
• as the system is now required to be transparent you are absolutely entitled to see scores etc if you have a concern. There will have been an HR person at the interviews and they will keep all the paperwork. If you want to take this further you should speak to HR.

The other candidate
I can't see that he's done anything wrong

• he applied for a job that presumably he thought he could do
• he will likely have had more recent interview experience bur sensibly asked friends at band 6 level for tips. You have been there for longer - is there any reason you couldn't ask band 6/7 colleagues for interview tips? Even your clinical supervisor if you weren't keen to talk to others? It does come across a little that you don't have much respect for them as they're young and childless. Perhaps so, but they're doing the job you applied for so are experienced and a good resource.

The project

• it sounds great and I'd love to know more about it. However, I wouldn't expect this on its own to buy you promotion.
• I work in a unit that prides itself on quality improvement - all our staff from band 3 upwards are expected to look at what can be improved and be involved in projects to do this (we have several interest groups that people are involved in).
• a band 5 nurse leading a project like this would have due appreciation and respect. The project would be mentioned in sister/team meetings, and likely in the wider directorate Q&S meeting. When complete, it would be great for her to have on her CV and be able to talk about at interview (and apply it where relevant to specific questions). She might be eligible for a prize at our nursing conference, or be able to present at our national specialty conference, depending on the work. None of these things means she would automatically get a band 6 - she would need to show other abilities as discussed above.
• I hate to say it, but she'd also likely have to do a lot of it in her own time. This is part of the nature if the NHS. Everywhere is stretched, most places are short-staffed. Our band 7s struggle to get the admin time they need to keep on top of essential management - they are often called away from admin days to do clinical work. The chances of having a full admin day a week, as a (part-time) band 5, would be very slim. You would be given some admin time if possible, but nothing like that amount. It's more likely you would be the first person given the opportunity on a clinical shift to sit at a computer and be called if it got busy again. I would also expect that someone applying for band 6 level posts would appreciate this...

These are just thoughts that occurred to me simply from your posts here. I'm sorry you didn't get the job, but please don't just drop your project - you have explained how worthwhile it is, and it would be a shame not to complete it.

Sorry, didn't realise that would be so long!