.. to be disappointed that a racist received a standing ovation!

[NannaNoodleman]

Danny Baker: Standing ovation at first show since Twitter storm www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-48249637

What is wrong with people. He showed his true inherent racism but people still believe he's a top bloke!

Sorry, made a mess of the surnames.Florence Adepoju and
Adjoa Andoh

@Scarcelyburnt
“You know what racism is and it's different forms but disagree with me that Danny is racist and made a racist comment aimed at hurting the feelings of a mixed-race mother and black/mixed race people.”

I just made a minor correction. Me disagreeing with you is not refusing to see.

Scarcelyburnt you and The Garden Fairy have written some nasty posts accusing a poster of racism. You personally might not like the expression "person of colour" but it is quite clear its use is acceptable in the UK. Do the BBC, The Guardian, The Independent and The Evening Standard all need to educate themselves too?

Or Jackie Kay? The Scottish Poet Laureate and a black woman - are you going to tell her to educate herself?

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/stage/2019/mar/30/richard-ii-my-friend-adjoa-andoh-was-born-to-play-the-king

LassofFyvie

Anything you find on Google about black people being happy to call themselves POC there will also be black people, on Google, who are insulted by that term. Mainly because everyone has an heritage and culture peculiar to them. POC is a term given to people who are not white - therefore many different cultures and heritage are being lumped as one.

You are certainly a white person....how would it feel to you to have your cultural heritage eradicated because people can't see past the colour of your skin? When was the last time someone needed to describe you as "That white person?

So if you were in a conversation and described someone as a POC how would you be describing them? What would the person you are having this discussion with learn about the person you are discussing? Are they Black African, Carribean, Turkish, Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Black American, Bangladeshi, Mauri....The list goes on...What is their religion? Religion may not be important to you but it certainly is to some ethnic groups. Or do you think the term POC is acceptable, and welcomed, because it gives a fleeting, nonchalant observation that the person discussed is not white?

I saw a very volatile argument when my neighbour was referred to as a POC. His view is that person who called him this term was rude, ignorant and out of order. He prefers to be known as Sikh Indian. That sums up his very being perfectly. He said..."If you are that ignorant call me black. I have no problem being described as black, because I am. Would you like it if I saw nothing about you other than being white? If I spoke about the white person would my companion decide on your cultural roots based on that shallow, unimportant, description?"

Think about it....

I know for certain that my children, their paternal family, our neighbours and friends do not take kindly to the term POC. If you wish to keep using it because you think you can then carry on.

Getting back to the OP... Prince William and Kate have had 3 children. Did Danny Baker ever post a meme with them holding the hands of a monkey?

Why not??

Anything you find on Google about black people being happy to call themselves POC there will also be black people, on Google, who are insulted by that term

The examples I gave were of black people using the expression, not just being happy with it. There were direct quotes by black women. You are of course entitled to dislike the expression- but asserting that it is wholly unacceptable and that anyone who uses it is racist is clearly not the case.

I know for certain that my children, their paternal family, our neighbours and friends do not take kindly to the term POC. If you wish to keep using it because you think you can then carry on

Stop making things up. I said I don't use it so don't twist what I said or put words in my mouth. I was giving you examples of black British women who use it. Are you going to tell those prominent black women to stop using it?

Or do you think the term POC is acceptable, and welcomed, because it gives a fleeting, nonchalant observation that the person discussed is not white?

Again if you used less selective reading you would see I said I don't personally use the term but why don't you ask any of the women I mentioned? They are all public figures. Adjoa Andoh in particular, given she directed what she described as the first all women of colour cast of Richard III might give you an answer.

When was the last time someone needed to describe you as "That white person?

It's absolutely normal to refer to anyone by race, gender, etc.....WHEN THEY ARE IN THE MINORITY!!

Hence we have the term male nurse. No one says female nurse, it's just nurse. Or women's football. No one says men's football, they just say football.

If you'd ever spend any time working / living in a place where white people are in a minority, it's perfectly normal for the majority to refer or describe someone as "that white person". It's not racist or insulting when used in that context.

Getting back to the OP... Prince William and Kate have had 3 children. Did Danny Baker ever post a meme with them holding the hands of a monkey

No he didn't because he is racist.

That wrong doesn't however give you the right to decide that an expression used by black people is racist and must never be used. You are now trying to police the language used by prominent black women like Adjoa Andoh and Jackie Kay.

Getting back to the OP... Prince William and Kate have had 3 children. Did Danny Baker ever post a meme with them holding the hands of a monkey

No, but the fact that he didn't isn't evidence of anything.

Everyone, including DB, agrees that the tweet was racist in context. The disagreement lies in whether DB is a racist, or whether he made a colossally stupid mistake with no racist intent.

From what I've read, those who actually have some experience of DB's work over decades find it difficult to believe he is a racist and accept his explanation. Those who've only seen him on the odd panel show, or, in one case, had never heard of him till the tweet, disagree.

The rest is sound and fury and this thread is becoming v unpleasant. Enough said.

No, but the fact that he didn't isn't evidence of anything

I think it’s very telling that he didn’t tweet that photo when William and Kate had their children, but of course you can choose to ignore this if you so choose to.

I think it’s very telling that he didn’t tweet that photo when William and Kate had their children, but of course you can choose to ignore this if you so choose to.

I'm not really ignoring it, but as a piece of evidence, it's means almost nothing. I've weighed it up against all the other evidence on DB and his track record on mocking the Royals more generally, of which there are countless examples. I don't see why anyone would find it telling, but each to their own.

I'm just going to give one more try of why this line of argument annoys me, and what I think the logical error is.

A man gets accused of robbing a branch of Lloyd's Bank. At his trial the prosecution claim as strong evidence, nay proof, that he did indeed rob the bank was to consider all the cases of banks he didn't rob.

I think I'm done now.

But the flaw with that argument is that you could also frame it as "A man gets accused of robbing a branch of Lloyd's Bank. At his trial the prosecution claim as strong evidence, nay proof, that he did indeed rob the bank was by looking at all the banks he considered robbing but they were all locked."

But you’d have to have evidence that he considered robbing those banks but couldn’t (or in this case, DB had been for years looking out for a black or mixed race person to attack, and MM was the first and only opportunity he had and he jumped at it)

Did he rob Lloyd’s bank or not though?

That’s what we don’t know! (In this thread we are discussing whether DB had racist intent)

Surely if someone is accused of robbing a bank though there’s some evidence of it happening? CCTV, staff being held at gunpoint, money missing etc!

It supposed to be an analogy and difficult because we are determining intent rather than action. But let’s say the cctv was on, but the robber had a balaclava on. The suspect has no prior history of robbing banks. The evidence being presented as telling is that there were other banks he didn’t rob.

Scarcelyburnt
"I'm absolutely not discounting the experiences of others. Fact is race matters to the majority of people. It matters to their identity. It matters to their lived experiences. Fact!"
-------

I don't think race does matter to the majority of people. It certainly makes a difference to their experience of life right now, though.

I know white people of Austrian descent and I know white people of Norwegian descent, and their different heritage and history (while I'm sure they are proud of it each in their own way) makes bugger all difference to how they are treated by others or how they treat people themselves.

Obviously in the UK at the moment there is a continuing problem with racism.
I'd say the most noble aspiration is that, one day, everyone of whatever skin colour will experience racism as my friends with Norwegian and Austrian heritage do - not at all.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that's not possible.

But I think it is. There is a problem with racism in the UK. It is a problem coming from a minority of people who are racist. That minority is shrinking. Of course, if you interact with 100 people and 1 is a racist, that's still enough to be a massive problem.

The internal radar a lot of people have to 'notice' skin colour and consider it significant is not innate.
People who grow up in a mono-racial environment are going to notice skin colour.
But (unless society teaches otherwise) people who grow up with friends of different skin tones don't assign any significance to it. You can see it in small kids today, and it's a wonderful thing.

I accept there is a valid case to be made for either:

• Do we accept race makes us different and celebrate the differences?
• Or do we edge towards a society where none of us ascribe any more significance to it than innocent children (unsullied by the attitudes of adults) would?

You can make a case either way.
My own view is that we need to be a little more sophisticated and distinguish between race and culture:

• celebrate cultural differences
• treat race as kids naturally do before society fucks them up - attach zero significance to it in everyday life

What I’m saying there would have to be some evidence against him for him to be arrested in the first place. If his balaclava was removed and it was definitely him there would be no question whether he was guilty or not.

I think we’re getting there. The evidence that DB had a racial intent is, to the best of my knowledge, minimal. To prove it, we can see what happens if and when (as I read) the police investigate and decide to charge him or not.

Proving him to be racist because of that photo and the words he used was always going to be hard imo, doesn’t mean he wasn’t though. I guess we all have a view on this and no matter what other people say to try and get their point across or for them to change others minds, we have to stick with what we believe.

Excellent posts from @ThymeOut.

Apologies if this point has been made already, but:

I think one of the problems is that more women are aware of MM and the press coverage of her, even if they are not royalists, because she is a prominent woman in the news, their friends discuss her, mumsnet discusses her etc. So they struggle to think anyone wouldn't know enough about her to immediately see the racial connotations in any tweet about her.

By contrast, lots of men only vaguely register MM and so genuinely don't know what her background is. That's true of the men I know anyhow. It doesn't make them racists.

Certainly Danny Baker is a broadcaster. But that doesn't mean he follows every media story and is aware of MM other than as a member of a posh institution he dislikes. Just as I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Jenni Murray didn't even know who Raheem Sterling was (though unlike MM his name/ appearance would give her a big clue as to his racial background), or that he had been the centre of numerous stories about racism in football. It would just make her a fairly typical not very interested in football female journalist.

Certainly Danny Baker is a broadcaster. But that doesn't mean he follows every media story and is aware of MM other than as a member of a posh institution he dislikes

I think this is what he banked on when posting the photo, that people would excuse him for not realising that MM is mixed race for instance. Which I don’t believe for a minute.