To think social mobility in the UK is awful?

[cnwc]

AIBU to think that social mobility has actually got much worse in the last decades rather than better?

I think house prices in places like London have got a lot to do with it, and too many of the best jobs are located there.

It seems pretty much impossible for people to move up in the world

Quite simple really, the population is at unsustainable levels, the job pools from low end to mid are swamped and add to that automation and technology will soon add to the chaos and God knows where will be. Employment rights are getting worse because of all this, wages stagnating, house prices still rising with supply/demand, social housing lists in to tens of thousands each area, cost of living keeps rising...It's an utter mess. That's at least my experience living on a South London council estate and working two jobs.

Apologies all, I incorrectly used the term Mickey Mouse degree. My context was people basically finding a degree course that will take them based on their results, not because they have a burning interest in the subject but because school/parents expect them to go to “uni” (I have known several). They accrue huge debt, Leave with a mediocre degree then end up working in Aldi. Absolutely nothing wrong with working in Aldi, great career prospects. They have fantastic in-house training and excellent rewards but you certainly don’t need to run up £40k in debt taking a degree in theology or classics first. That’s the Mickey Mouse aspect to me, taking a pointless degree (career wise: I know the there’s always merit in education for its own sake argument and fully endorse it but sadly not many 18 year olds can afford that luxury).
No subject is Mickey Mouse if you have a clear career path in mind. Tourism and hospitality is an hugely important sector and as with all professions we need trained professionals running it.
We do suffer from a tendency to look down on manual labour in this country. Our youngest has a very specific career path in mind which as it happens requires an academic degree. If he changes his mind though and says he wants to learn plastering, plumbing or hairdressing instead, great, he’s got a plan. Lots of parents I know would feel no embarrassment in admitting disappointment if that’s what their academic children decided they actually wanted to do. Those attitudes need to change and vital skills valued.

MA from the University of York. Where’s yours from @Zipee, wherever you got it - always assuming you have one - it clearly didn’t cover the art of rational, non confrontational debate.

Correct me if I am wrong Maria but you always strike me as a person who wouldn’t have to be persuaded too hard that eugenics is a terribly good idea...

Incidentally, my initial post was entirely accurate. Not only could those children do everything I said, but thousands did. Research may show that grammar school education did not universally lead to greater social mobility but on an individual level it did.

One of the problems is that 25% of all jobs now have a degree as a formal barrier to entry, that many did not before.

When you expand this to an informal barrier, its about 30%, 33% of the population as a whole have degrees.

Surely, with the internet, there are more opportunities for people to set up their own businesses, work remotely, travel.
Education was the key for me, it has led me to a good career
However, I believe that personality plays a big part in helping people to take advantage of opportunities too

LSE, and Harvard.

Your initial post was not correct, the research shows two things.

The tests designed by Burt on which the 11 plus was based could be trained and prepared for, and that they turned out to be indicators of socioeconomic status rather than ability.

Furthermore students from working class backgrounds were under represented at grammar school level ( due to the above) and even when there were less likely to perform than their more wealthy counterparts.

Your entire debate approach has been confrontational and patronising, I note that your M.A didn't teach you to find peer reviewed backing for your opinions, or to apply critical thinking correctly.

My first post was correct. Try reading it again and note the word could. Your education didn’t seem to teach you particularly strong comprehension skills.

I’ll leave it to readers of this thread to judge who is confrontational and patronising.

Had a quick squizz through the thread and didn't see a link.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-48229037

"Inequality driving deaths of despair"

Correct me if I am wrong Maria but you always strike me as a person who wouldn’t have to be persuaded too hard that eugenics is a terribly good idea...

I would have thought you were the one promoting eugenics!

"Could" doesn't mean likely to, as the discussion was regarding social mobility your point implied that people could do this if they were able and worked hard, this was not the case.

Still incorrect and dismissing evidence using you own experience, and unable to offer any evidence, or cite any research that backs your opinion.

They still could.

They could, but they weren't actually likely to, and grammar schools did not act as a conduit for social mobility, quite the opposite in fact, even for those from working class backgrounds who made it there.

As I said the implication is there that the equality of opportunity was there so that if someone was able and worked hard they would achieve.

Not the case, as explained by the use of Burt's tests as a basis for the 11+

It was the case. If it wasn’t, nobody would have done it. Many did. I conceded many posts back that @Maria’s point about economic change leading to greater social mobility in the post war years was probably correct.

Of course they could. And some always have.

Langrish To be fair, I’m sure you would concede that for a plasterer to be earning enough to send their children to private school is fairly unusual. I’m from an Irish immigrant background and work for a building company so have a fair bit of exposure to the trades- whilst tradespeople can earn highly (particularly if they can find more artistic/ artisan work) to earn the amount that supports private school fees is unusual (well I guess this is obvious since so few children attend private school in the U.K.)

"many did".

Not the case The Gurney-Dixon Report (1954) Early Leaving identified that even if children of semi-skilled and unskilled workers got into grammar schools they were more likely to leave early without gaining qualifications. The Crowther report showed that 81% pf children of manual workers left before 17, compared with 40% of those who had parents in professional or managerial roles. Only 9% of manual workers children stayed till 18.

Crowther also showed that only 10% of the children from working class backgrounds got into grammar schools.

The world of work is vastly different.

Zero hours jobs or jobs with minimal hours guaranteed, don't offer stability or promotion prospects.

The idea that if you work hard, you'll do well is long gone.

Many of those on the lowest incomes have unstable employment prospects, short term tenancies, have little access to extra tuition and, with unstable, 'as and when' hours, are unable to commit to evening classes, social events or any regular activities.

I'm lucky, in that my mortgage is paid off, but I've lost out on opportunities as I can't afford to turn down work or have committed to shifts I can't then cancel.

Children growing up with parents scrabbling around for relatively menial work and the ever present prospect of losing the roof over their heads, tend to follow their parents into low paid, menial work, as they don't have the opportunities available to children of parents in regular work, who can schedule their lives around working hours and who can help their children with homework, extra tuition or school events.

Children see the fight for money and accomodation prioritised over their education and learn that lesson very early on.

In the part of Kent I know well there are artisan tradespeople (roofers, kitchen designers...) who earn really well but much prefer a large house or a second home in France to paying private school fees where their children would mix with the children of commuters.

“Not that I'm doubting these inspiring tales for a moment, but the fact remains that UK state education is bloody nearly the worst in Europe - worse than Romania & Bulgaria acc the OECD.”

To be fair this does depend on which measure you use- the U.K. does score well on the PISA test, for example

I can’t grasp how you could read that from my posts Maria but understanding other people’s points of view is not your strong point.

You yourself pointed out that a degree is now a minimum requirement for many careers which did not demand one in the past. At the time i’m referencing just 5% of the population were graduates.

I pointed out hours ago that some grammar school pupils left after “O” levels (ie before 17), went into white collar jobs and progressed their careers from there.

You don’t understand the implications of your own statements of opinion, howudufeel.