To think social mobility in the UK is awful?

[cnwc]

AIBU to think that social mobility has actually got much worse in the last decades rather than better?

I think house prices in places like London have got a lot to do with it, and too many of the best jobs are located there.

It seems pretty much impossible for people to move up in the world

@Curious

London seems to be it's very own bubble!

I personally have an issue with social mobility as a concept as it reinforces social strata and classism. Coming from a working class background has had much more of a positive impact on my work ethic and values than a private education ever would. I graduated top of my class with a first class honours degree and am now doing a postgrad at a Russel Group university (apprently this matters to some folk). No exorbitant school fees required!!

Hard work and strong values win out against financial privilege every time for me.

No, lived experience @Bertrand which apparently counts for nothing.

There was far greater social mobility after WW2 because of structural changes to the economy. White collar jobs grew massively and manual jobs decreased.

You are guilty of survivor bias:

" the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that made it past some selection process and overlooking those that did not, typically because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. It is a form of selection bias."

By definition.

Individual research can be flawed, but not when the same results are replicated by numerous studies over time.

I'm glad you know that research can be flawed, or even faked, as it was by Cyril Burt, whose research the 11 + and the entire grammar system was based on.

Interesting @MariaNovella, that makes sense. So, not “survivor bias” but ascribing my experience to education rather than economic change.

Yes!

Lived experience is very important. But does not make something a universal fact.

As it happens, my lived experience if the 11+ is very different to yours- in the village I lived in when I was 10 the solicitors and doctor’s children went private, the children of what would now be called “management” went to the grammar or the technical college and the working class went to the Secondary Modern. There were exceptions, of course, but that was the pattern. I could probably remember the names of all the children my age if I though about it!

Passthecherrycoke

“Me too. That’s not social mobility though (although it is for their children)”

I’ll agree to differ. I think that’s generally what social mobility has always been, that parents aspire not necessarily for themselves but to their kids doing better than they did and for a long time that’s fired the general upward trend for all classes.
The worrying thing now though is that as with health and life expectancy, for the first time in several generations, things are going backwards. Of course policy determines a great deal in terms of life chances but I also think we’re more lacking in personal responsibility now than we have been for some considerable time.
It’s a great deal more complicated I think than just blaming everything on austerity. Modern British attitudes have a great deal to do with it too.
I’ve always been puzzled why it is, for example, that even in towns like our nearest sizeable one, deprived with a very high level of child poverty and higher than average unemployment, particularly among the young, immigrants (who I welcome with open arms) continue to succeed. Whilst local youngsters languish, young immigrants, particularly Eastern European’s, set up and run successful businesses within weeks of arrival, often with limited English and capital. In trying to understand why, I can only imagine that social attitudes make it so different for the two groups. We don’t place value on the manual skills that many young immigrants bring with them so if our children aren’t academically able in school, there’s nowhere for them to go but unskilled, zero hours “jobs” with no security.
We need massive investment in real apprenticeships: we can’t all work in the service industries!

There is also quite a lot of research that indicates that humans in advanced economies have self-sorted intellectually and that socioeconomic class and IQ are much more closely correlated than in the past as a result, given that IQ has a large genetic component. So state intervention to mix socioeconomic groups at school for a rub off effect will be less effective than before the great sort.

@Bertrand, you must have lived in a nicer area than me. If no working class kids had gone to the grammar it would have been empty.

@Alsohuman-are you saying that all the research is flawed because it does not match your personal
experience?

Its survivor bias, you meet the definition exactly.

Not that strong academically are we?

I went (briefly! to a Kent grammar school in the late 1970s - a highly desirable one even then, that took first pick of girls who had passed the 11+. There were a lot of DC on FSM and free uniforms. But those girls didn’t all stay on for A-levels.

“young, immigrants (who I welcome with open arms) continue to succeed.“

Because the sort of people who uproot themselves and move to another country in search of a better life are the sort of people who succeed?

@zipee-that was uncalled for.

Bertrand

Yes of course that’s part of it. But in such numbers? Where are the equivalent young British entrepreneurs? We just don’t see them in such vast numbers.

I do think a lot of it is because we don’t place value on manual, sellable skills. Many of our kids who aren’t academically able are still being shoe-horned into HE. Research on Today just yesterday said that 25% of students are taking (and running up mass debt in the process) effectively Mickey Mouse, lightweight degrees that will never help them to secure well paid jobs. They’re doing it because everyone is now expected to go to “uni”, it’s almost become an end in itself with no real idea if where it might lead. A lot of those kids would be far better undertaking 3 year apprenticeships in trades which would leave them equipped to set up on their own.

Physical and manual skills are severely undervalued among the working and middle classes. The upper classes have always had much more time for creative leisure pursuits.

These threads are inevitably full of people who started life in an empty tin of beans, got full scholarships to Eton and now own Facebook.

Not that I'm doubting these inspiring tales for a moment, but the fact remains that UK state education is bloody nearly the worst in Europe - worse than Romania & Bulgaria acc the OECD.

Only half those who leave school in the UK have 5 or more basic literacy quals.

25% of students, actually means about 8% of the entire population, and the research was only based on first jobs, not longer term.

"mickey mouse degrees" like classics? Or Theology?

Only 27.9% of 18 year olds go to uni, its only 29% of all under 21s, and 33% of the population under 30.

So no not everyone goes to Uni.

e

Yes- and (don’t let me get on this hobby horse please!) the decline in vocational BTecs had done huge damage. Governments bow to ignorant sneering at Health and Beauty or Tourism, completely ignoring the fact that these are excellent and useful qualifications for some kids. Ds’s school had to discontinue catering, construction and horticulture- all of which had been excellent steps up to employment for many of it’s pupils.

Classics and Theology are not Mickey Mouse degrees as they improve cognitive function. However, graduates of degrees that are so very far removed from contemporary economics and politics need to ensure that they keep on top of current affairs as well as developing their knowledge of the past.

@Zipee, no, not strong academically at all. Just the MA.

"Classics and Theology are not Mickey Mouse degrees as they improve cognitive function. "

Could be claimed for all degrees, you are just choosing which one they apply to.

@Alsohuman, yet unable to accept that your own anecdote is not the same as the data, from a large number of peer reviewed research papers across 50 years?

Confirmation bias too!

Perhaps you could point out where I said that? Are you always as rude as this or do I just bring out the worst in you?

To be fair, @Alsohuman, you suggested that the research must be flawed because it did not match your lived experience.

Your entire posts show that.

This: "It’s ironic that social mobility was so much greater 50 years ago. A bright child, whatever their background, could win a grammar school place, go on to university without getting into debt and get a graduate job that paid a decent salary"

Isn't accurate and is disproved by both Crowther and Robbins.

Your references to your own experiences and disregarding the significant amount of academic research into this area show that you are guilty of both biases.

MA from the Early Learning Centre?