To think social mobility in the UK is awful?

[cnwc]

AIBU to think that social mobility has actually got much worse in the last decades rather than better?

I think house prices in places like London have got a lot to do with it, and too many of the best jobs are located there.

It seems pretty much impossible for people to move up in the world

Education in the UK got hijacked by the “knowledge economy” BS concept that said that the UK was going to be an economy of cerebral ie high value added labour and other countries would do low value added manual Labour. We would be richer because we would trade in high value added labour.

Unfortunately that theory doesn’t work as not all our citizens are able to become city workers...

As I said 25% of all occupations have holding a degree as a formal barrier to entry, the vast majority of which tend to pay higher than the average income. If you didn't have a degree you wouldn't be able to enter, and earn the higher wages.

That's not nearly good enough to establish causation.

And some more anecdata for you Zip. My DD did an Art degree, with the back up plan of doing teaching. While waiting to start a PGCE she has spent the last year in a sales type role where most of her colleagues are not graduates. She has the highest sales figures in the department, higher than people who have been doing her job a long time. And therefore pulls the highest salary.

Is this because she has been to university and has that piece of paper, that Art degree? Or because she is really bright and keen and motivated and therefore the sort of person more likely to go to university?

I think people for whom going to university is the only route out of dire towns are probably very resistant to the idea that degrees are being oversold as a route to prosperity. After all, if the degree route doesn’t work, what hope is there?

Tinkly - while I am sure your DD’s underlying personality is key to her success, university does instill communication and analysis skills that are very relevant to sales roles.

I think you’re right and how disheartening to find yourself with tens of thousands in debt and be no better off at the end of the day.

That’s a fair point Maria. I think being good at sales is quite innate though and not necessarily something that can be taught. DD sold keyrings in a nightclub before she ever went to uni and made a lot of money even then.

I think you’re right and how disheartening to find yourself with tens of thousands in debt and be no better off at the end of the day.

You're not, though, unless you do well for yourself.

Another perversion of the current H.E. funding arrangement.

I have plenty of understanding, you appear to use it to discredit any use of statistics, whilst citing anecdote in order to back up your point.

DD sold keyrings in a nightclub before she ever went to uni and made a lot of money even then.

Love this, shrewd character.

Oh, you mean the threshold for repayment? The debt’s still there, though. And who’s to say you wouldn’t reach the threshold salary without a degree? There must be a lot of people who earn in excess of that figure who haven’t got a degree.

At a macro level, there is a debt incurred by society for degrees with no payback that we should not ignore.

Zipee anyone with a grasp of statistics is far more cautious about assuming causation than you are.

Remember Also that you don’t start paying it back until you earn what, £25k?

I think the drawbacks are more to do with wasting time. Someone who left school at 18 is more likely to have some sort of trade and 3 years work experience under their belt compared to someone leaving uni at 21 with a not very useful degree.

"Or because she is really bright and keen and motivated and therefore the sort of person more likely to go to university?"

You keep repeating this type of thing. It doesn't disprove the data, anecdote, again.

I think the drawbacks are more to do with wasting time.

Yes, huge opportunity cost.

Thanks @Maria, that’s basically what I was attempting to say.

Oh, you mean the threshold for repayment? The debt’s still there, though. And who’s to say you wouldn’t reach the threshold salary without a degree? There must be a lot of people who earn in excess of that figure who haven’t got a degree.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, but it is an obvious non-penalty for people who would fall into the category of pointless degree choices, and a preference faffing about on someone else's dime for a few years.

I agree there are many who will clear this threshold without a degree, like people who decide they want to be writers and set about doing an English A-level and being voracious readers, and of course people in sought-after vocations.

Zip I am attempting to illustrate the difference between correlation and causation.

I can see I’m flogging a dead horse though, so I’ll leave it now.

I can see I’m flogging a dead horse though, so I’ll leave it now.

Yep.

"Zipee anyone with a grasp of statistics is far more cautious about assuming causation than you are."

I've offered evidence from numerous sources which back the point that on average a degree is worth having as it leads to higher earnings, especially as having a degree is a barrier to entry for most higher paid roles, as well as for obtaining progression from roles that have lower starting pay but whose pay increases incrementally throughout a career ( many public service roles).

40% of graduates work in the public administration, education and health industries. Graduates were more likely to work in high-skilled posts than non-graduates. The vast majority of these roles will require degrees or post graduate studies, but may also be lower paid at the start. its also noted in the ONS data that annual earnings whilst graduates do earn more than non graduates, they also reach a peak at a later age.

I'm the one flogging the dead horse.

You've got that retort rote learned for any data that you don't like.

This thread must be a record. 15% of responses from one poster who has completely failed to find a single person to agree with them.

I've offered evidence from numerous sources which back the point that on average a degree is worth having as it leads to higher earnings

You've done nothing of the sort. You've offered evidence that people with degrees earn more money than people without, that is all we know.

The fact that you've heavily cited public/quasi-public sector data is revealing - the government, as we all know, is a great example of an employer that throws up pointless requirements that yield no real advantage. I'd wager that through their army of subcontractors this requirement is neatly sidestepped.

Employers are not only looking for qualifications
They are looking for soft skills too
Example
Good time keeping, arrive on time
Good communication skills
Positive attitude
Flexible
Willing to learn new tasks, perhaps on the job training
Team player
Etc

It's no good having 3 degrees, if you have poor social skills for some jobs