To think social mobility in the UK is awful?

[cnwc]

AIBU to think that social mobility has actually got much worse in the last decades rather than better?

I think house prices in places like London have got a lot to do with it, and too many of the best jobs are located there.

It seems pretty much impossible for people to move up in the world

Well, as we know that graduate jobs are higher paid on average, and that a degree is now a barrier to entry to many of these jobs then its and evident that getting a degree leads to higher pay.

However, it doesn't work out equally, as previously stated, those who were privately educated and from high socioeconomic backgrounds out earn their equals in achievement from state schools.

Blabbing on that getting a degree isn't a good way to boost your earnings over all is rubbish.

None of you have offered anything other than supposition, and a doctored quote for your opinions.

My other half parents always look at us like were not working hard enough.She would say with her wage she bought herself a home easy.

The reality is her son my man ,i saw over years work tirelessly looking for work.At first it was applying for everything in sight,nothing.

For me it was worst they looked down on me like anyone does in society i have cerebral palsy and the life i have gone through has not helped.My cerebral palsy not bad legs a little stiff and my hands shake a little.But otherwise i have a mind i struggle but i can pull through unfortunately though it was a label that teachers took one look at and gave up.I recall in secondary wanting to do what any other person was doing but being constantly told you wont be able to try heres a simple task.I learnt that i was to stupid to achieve anything and thus stopped trying.My grades clearly showed this and i knew as much i wanted to i would never go to uni and had to take what i could get.

Home life didn't help my own mother couldn't cope on her own so she could not help me.Unfortunately for my mother like anyone one in this country if you have a mental health problem your on your own.Thus i was on my own and the cycle continues.My mother was not coping after my father had left her he had a mental breakdown.As you can see when it comes to mental health it has a knock on effect.First my father then my mother,then me and also my sister she killed her self many years later.

I tried to go to college i worked hard got a certificate in childcare and education but spent years unemployed.I was still unemployed with my other half.Yet anyone in my life automatically assumed i was a lazy benefits leech who didn't want to work.

When my other half finally got a full time job security securing a construction site.He worked long hours for a full month and then the company up and vanishes .They were hired by tesco paid and then left without paying the staff.

We had rent to pay food so this was the first debt we acquired ,we could see we could not cope on own own.So borrowed a little from family to move close to them for support.When we got a private rent we applied for housing benefit till we could get on our feet. Our forms were constantly lost and over months we got more in debt.The council would not pay us housing benefit by simply not completely our applications.

More unemployment and more debt and yet when he did find another full time job about a year later his boss stole money from him using his till login on a day were the camera was not working.We had to pay or face a criminal record.

I tried to apply for work no luck either and trying to find work when you suffer from anxiety disorder near impossible anyway.Trying to get help for it near impossible as well.

We now wait for council housing whilst in temporary housing after getting evicted from another place.We moved after my partner got a full time job so we could be closer.Once i found medication that helped i was able to find work yet once again i am looked down for it.dammed if you do dammed if you dont. Every time i say i work in fast food people look at me like i am stupid.Even though its hard enough standing for long hours in pain due to my legs or trying not to feel panicky in the work place.

This society abandons its mentally ill
looks down on its impaired and disabled
education is poor unless you have money
living in a rental accommodation in insecure
and your completely on your own if your poor and have no family .We only pulled through because although his family look down on us at least they try to help.

my other half finally got a full time job at a factory yet with my job its barely enough to live.Once we get council housing we will have enough to live and pay off debts but after working so hard thats all you can really expect when poor.

Zipee - I suggest you read the whole of the IFS report linked to in the Guardian article.

However you really can tell that social mobility in the UK is broken when private school students out earn their equals from state after their degrees, even though state school students out perform private school students at university ( even the elite ones).

The barriers to entry to many professions, even informally, used to be having a degree, now there are many more, which hinders the ability of those who are not from privileged backgrounds to have an equal chance at success.

Thanks, I just did, I wonder why you focused on the 29 quote when this is also part of it:

"Importantly, age 29 is relatively early in an individuals’ career. There is strong evidence that the earnings of men who attend HE continue to grow faster than their non-HE counterparts after age 30. This is likely to result in the returns to HE for men being larger at later ages than we are able to estimate here."

Funny that you found one quote and focused on it so much.

Zipee - the drivers of professional success and socioeconomic mobility have always been a lot more complex than mere access to HE. The wonderful thing is that mass access to HE and powerful statistical tools now enable us to gain far greater clarity about what the real drivers are. Once you know the truth, you can address unfairness in a targeted way. We are in an era where we can move away from conjecture and hypothesis as a basis for political decisions.

It was just one example that disproved the “all degrees are good” hypothesis that has been so prevalent in this thread. Not a focus.

@TinklyLittleLaugh yes I know a few tradespeople. I’m currently sitting in an office with 340 of them coming in and out, and my dad, FIL, 2 brothers, BIL and sisters BF are all tradespeople.

I also know that hiring a few plumbers and having bad plumbing in your building has bugger all to do with having knowledge of the trades.

But again, your claim that lots of people would have been better off not going to university is not substantiated, the fact that even non Russell group graduates earn more than non graduates does substantiate the fact that university education, is mostly beneficial.

Maria "IRL I can barely think of anyone I know with fewer than two degrees, apart from civil servants"

seriously?!

who the fuck has the money to pay for all these degrees?!

Zipee - yes it is, because the study does not take account of the costs of university.

It really doesn’t Zip. It simply measures that the group of people who go to uni earn more.

To prove that having a degree means you earn more, you would have to measure the group of people who went to uni against an identical group who are exactly the same except that they haven’t gone to uni.

For instance, my DH is a scientist who set up his own business and made a lot of money. He remarked to my mum that actually, his dream job would have been being a mechanic. But being bright, with aspirational parents, he was pushed down the mechanic route.

My mum said, “Well just as well you went to uni then and got rich.”

But my argument was that DH is very bright and very driven. I have no doubt that he was a mechanic he would have ended up running a lucrative business, like the guy who fixes our cars.

DH hasn’t made money because he went to uni. He has made money because he is bright and driven. Being bright and driven made him more likely to end up getting a degree. And also more like to be rich, however he made his money. The two things are a correlation, not a causation.

Aargh, DH was pushed down the uni route, not the mechanic route ffs.

Obviously a university degree of itself earns no money at all. If only!

I'm amazed by a lot of posts on this thread

just curious - how would most posters feel if their DD said "I want to be a hairdresser/plumber/mechanic"?

I feel as if a lot of people would be horrified. Tinkly you used the expression "working class made good". To me that implies you think there's something wrong with it in the first place?

But again, your claim that lots of people would have been better off not going to university is not substantiated, the fact that even non Russell group graduates earn more than non graduates does substantiate the fact that university education, is mostly beneficial.

You keep repeating the same thing, without addressing the problem of correlation vs causation.

Also, I expect that these gap is closing all the time.

It really does prove that going to university is worth it rather than not.

What you are claiming is that anecdote is better than data.

Graduates are more likely to be employed and graduates of all universities earn more than those who did not attend.

Even the evidence you have attempted to use to prove your point was extremely selective, and ignored other points.

On average those who attend university earn more than those who don't, irrespective of institution or course. That shows that it is actually worth attending.

Everyone can anecdotally give you a success or failure story, but it doesn't challenge the statistics effectively.

You keep repeating the same thing without evidence to back it up.

As I said 25% of all occupations have holding a degree as a formal barrier to entry, the vast majority of which tend to pay higher than the average income. If you didn't have a degree you wouldn't be able to enter, and earn the higher wages.

However, it is clear that those from better off backgrounds are more likely to go to university, and even when comparing students who did the same subject at the same university, those from the richest households still earn around 10% more than their peers from less affluent backgrounds.

You obviously have no grasp of correlation versus causation Zip so probably best you refrain from quoting statistics.

Maybe try and learn a little bit about matched groups being necessary for proper statistical analysis.

“I feel as if a lot of people would be horrified. Tinkly you used the expression "working class made good". To me that implies you think there's something wrong with it in the first place?”

Agreed

Rosa I use “working class made good” as lazy shorthand for being the first from our working class backgrounds to go to uni, make money, adopt traditionally middle class mores and generally learn how to play the system.

It’s a fairly well known phrase and no offence at all was intended.

For all those who think education is not achieving much

Why are lots of developing countries encouraging children to stay in education longer ?
Some children are forced due to circumstances into work or marriage
Longer education provides more opportunities

The same principal should apply to UK

I don’t have any objection to education. I just think education in his country should be more focussed on filling skill shortages. I would imagine that most people in developing countries do degrees that are very focussed on achieving a well paid career.

Education when it works is a social and individual good.

Unfortunately, a lot of so called education is nothing of the sort.

I mean, if Art or Film is your passion then go ahead and study it. But go into it eyes wide open that you are unlikely to earn a good salary off the back of it.

And when you get your job in the call centre, your supervisor might be Dave, who was three sets below you in school but has been working there since he was 18.

If the idea of that doesn’t bother you, and you just want to learn about your subject and broaden your horizons then go ahead.