To think social mobility in the UK is awful?

[cnwc]

AIBU to think that social mobility has actually got much worse in the last decades rather than better?

I think house prices in places like London have got a lot to do with it, and too many of the best jobs are located there.

It seems pretty much impossible for people to move up in the world

(Yes I have )

The small town I live in can't get numbers for evening classes at the school - well, Weight Watchers and a camera club do well. U3A do quite a lot though.

Despite that a lot of locals get to nearby towns and a couple of cities, depending on the bus schedules, travelling 10 - 30 miles to get to adult education classes. Having said that I know that the area has a lot of input because a lot of it is in that area of very high social deprivation and is very rural. I used to have to send of various tomes of information to get funding renewed, so I know how precarious it all is!

“A bright child, whatever their background, could win a grammar school place,”
They couldn’t and didn’t. Well, some did. But it was still pretty unusual for working class kids to go to grammar school. The misty eyed view of the 11+ system is largely a nostalgic reinvention.

"When I was young it was entirely possible for someone who had missed out on education to pick it up in adult life. "

If there weren't second chances, might focus the minds on school and education when they had the first chance, in school.

If young people choose (and yes they choose) to dick about and not take advantage of the opportunities they have, its on them.

Hmm I'd say it's more England that is London centric...

I haven't heard of anyone particularly eager to leave Scotland for London. Can't speak for the Welsh or Irish but we do ok up here and I wouldn't swap it for London if I was paid to do so.

If there weren't second chances, might focus the minds on school and education when they had the first chance, in school. Ah! Now there speaks the voice of my inner demon. That is one of the reasons I stopped lecturing full time.

It is also the main reason I am seriously considering leaving the Access Course. I have hit my head against that wall for decades, it may be time for me to stop!

In fact I may use those hours to teach middle class wimmin to knit yoghurt! Or some such!

• or maybe I won't. I'll give it 'just one more year and see how it goes' as I have done for about 10 years!

It really isn’t a nostalgic reinvention @Bertrand. I was a product of the grammar system. I went to school with the children of farm and builders labourers, a milkman, shop assistants in a rural area where teachers and solicitors were aristocracy.

I'd say it's more England that is London centric...

I live in very rural England, and many here feel the same about London. They abhor the idea of it just as much as many 'Townies' abhor the countryside

“I know some very well off and successful carpenters, plumbers and plasterers with kids at private schools. I wouldn’t knock the trades.”

Me too. That’s not social mobility though (although it is for their children)

Very rural England is probably very different to the former mining towns of my experience Curious.

Its funny that all of the research into Grammar schools say that they were not good for social mobility, Crowther 1959, Robbins 1963, and the Sutton Trust in 2012.

Yet people still repeat it cause it worked for them, ignoring survivor bias.

@alsohuman, it is nostalgic reinvention, even in 1959 Grammar schools were not vehicles for social mobility.

Grammar schools were not created solely for the purpose of social mobility, so why would they have worked very well to improve it?

Every time state education selects, it attempts to mix clever poor children with middle class children who have had more opportunity. The state hopes that the MC opportunities will rub off on the poor children. This only works up to a point.

Very rural England is probably very different to the former mining towns of my experience Quite probably. But, if I may muddy the waters further, round here is very rural and ex-mining, bit not full on commercial mining!

But many of my family are still in Stoke! The older generations are ex miners.

You can argue all you like that my experience is invalid. The fact remains that there are people my age from very humble backgrounds who have had successful careers.

The fact remains that there are people my age from very humble backgrounds who have had successful careers.

Yes - but not many. If you look at studies across countries, the ability of clever poor children to use their selective schooling to overcome their social destiny is quite limited.

I told you, the data does not replicate your experience, and so you are guilty of survivor bias and your anecdote is not evidence of the success of grammar schools in encouraging social mobility.

“It really isn’t a nostalgic reinvention @Bertrand. I was a product of the grammar system. I went to school with the children of farm and builders labourers, a milkman, shop assistants in a rural area where teachers and solicitors were aristocracy.”

I don’t doubt your experience. But it was not universal. There is plenty of research to support this.

Immigration has reduced many people’s opportunities and choice of places to live. 300k immigrants a year allegedly 300k houses ‘need’ to be built, go figure. Swathes of lovely countryside destroyed.

Yes, I know some work in the health service, but not all

"Grammar schools were not created solely for the purpose of social mobility, so why would they have worked very well to improve it?"

But the argument here is that they did improve social mobility.

They didn't.

What improves social mobility is tackling the causes of inequality.

The comedian Frank Skinner is a fascinating example of social mobility- he left school with no qualifications but was able to get to university via adult education and a full grant. It would be very difficult for someone from his background to do that now.

"Immigration has reduced many people’s opportunities and choice of places to live. 300k immigrants a year allegedly 300k houses ‘need’ to be built, go figure. Swathes of lovely countryside destroyed."

Drivel.

Again no evidence that immigration has caused reduction in opportunities for British nationals OR has had an impact on the number of houses built OR had a significant impact on house prices.

What this thread shows, as often occurs on mumsnet, that actually people's economic situation has very little to do with intelligent or academic ability.

Yanbu op. This was on the BBC site this morning www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-48229037 very sad reading.

What improves social mobility is tackling the causes of inequality.

I agree. This is, however, horribly resource intensive. And even when there is enough money around to halve the size of early primary classes in deprived areas, as France has done, finding enough really good teachers is a huge challenge.

I am guilty of nothing @Zipee. Does it not occur to you that research can be flawed? There was far greater social mobility then than there is now. That is a fact.

“There was far greater social mobility then than there is now. That is a fact.“
Do you have the stats?