Moaning about being ‘poor’ when rich

[freetone]

AIBU to think if you are childless, go on 3 holidays abroad per year and live in a 4 bed detached house on a private road then you don’t have the right to moan about being ‘poor’? My DF and his wife have been like this recently. He earns over £150k a year. It shows how far away from reality they are imo. Really gets on my nerves when there are millions of people genuinely struggling. Anyone else experienced people like my Father?

£16 an hour is what a charity local to me pays for a part-time accountant with a basic bookkeeping qualification. Term time as well. I think a teaching assistant will be around that wage level too.

A TA will probably start on national living wage which is just over £8 an hour. I can’t imagine any TA, regardless of experience, earning as much as £16 an hour.

The rest of what you mentioned (cheaper childcare, free hours subsidy etc) just moves the balance towards being better off on welfare, not worse, no?

I think there’s some misunderstanding about how the benefit system works, which is likely the fault of the calculator website! If your childcare costs were lower then you’d receive less benefits. It’s not the case that the benefit system says every family is entitled to a fixed amount of support which they can spend as they see fit. What you’re entitled to depends on your circumstances - eg if you have to pay for childcare then you’ll receive some funding towards it. If you don’t pay for it, either because your DC receive free care or are at school during your working hours, then the amount of benefit you receive will be reduced as you are not entitled to help with childcare if you’re not actually using/paying for that childcare.

My favourite was a couple of people talking about doing a food challenge of only spending x amount we person per day and how difficult it would be. I sat there doing maths and being very confused thinking my mental abilities had failed me. Nope turned out that the amount worked out as £15 more a week than I was spending. And I did not think we were particularly missing out on anything on that budget.

@BitBored
Average annual salary for a teaching assistant is £13K. This is not min wage for a part-time position. I don't know what the actual hourly rate is, but it is term time school hours only position, no?
As you say, childcare is covered one way or another on welfare, so it is net zero or very close to zero, no matter what the actual cost is (and many people don't even know how much an unsubsidised place in their nursery costs).

This thread is so interesting.

We are so grateful for our circumstances and consider ourselves very comfortable on 2 very average incomes, we’re the absolute poster family of working class.

We’ve previously lived with a toddler and a mortgage on one income of £16k and I’d never have considered us even struggling, let alone poor.

I’d agree that how one classifies their own circumstances is a lot to do with perspective, contentment, the circles you keep and having general financial capability/education.

The circles you keep I believe is a huge contributor to people’s feelings of inadequacy and comparison. My closest friends and I all have varying levels of income/outgoings/different financial priorities but we share a similar perspective of contentment.

I know one family who desperately try to keep up with the Joneses, actually they try to be the Joneses and they are always moaning and miserable. They have massively spoiled and entitled children.

I don’t know how in this day and age those earning £15k/£100k/£500k can’t see that, of course there are people in very poor circumstances in this country, not 3rd world poor but in a disgraceful position for a very well off 1st world country.

How can there be no awareness at all when these people are often right under your nose cleaning your office, serving your lunch or the young Mum counting pennies out in front of you in the supermarket??

But posters who imply that a salary of £100K buys you private flying lessons (presumably to fly your private jet), private schooling or second holiday homes are also delusional.

Well not necessarily. There are people who have 100k incomes without mortgages and money in the bank. Income is an unreliable indicator of how well off someone is. You could be a millionaire with a low income. Some of this is luck, but some of it isn't as it can also be down to saving and prioritising long term security.

Nobody thinks that a £100k income is going to buy you a private jet.

But it does mean that you have a higher income than 95% of the uk population so I'd certainly call that rich.

If you make £140k then you are in the top 1%.

If you are in the top 0.1% this is the Super Rich category. You need to be Super Rich to have a private jet, not just Rich.

My cousin went to private school and had flying lessons (is now a helicopter pilot at 23) and his parents were on less than 100k but no mortgage as his mum died. It depends what you prioritise.

I feel poor at the moment as we're saving for a kitchen and putting away £1k to £1500 per month which means I have to budget what's left. Clearly I won't say that in rl as I know we're in a good position but it doesn't stop me feeling the self inflicted pinch.

I got told off by a cousin recently because I said I couldn’t afford to buy a tumble drier. There’s a big difference between not being able to afford nice extras and being poor. We aren’t poor at all, far from it. But I have no spare cash to buy myself stuff. I drive a nice car (husband bought the car) and live in a decent sized 4 bed house in the countryside. I’d like some summer clothes and shoes, but I just don’t have the money at the moment. My budget each month buys the food and anything the 3 children need. My husband pays the house bills.
I know I am fortunate to have what I have. When growing up we were less fortunate. Though my parents did own their own house, we were on a strict budget for food. Clothes were always from a charity shop or hand me downs. Hot water was only turned on once a week, we didn’t have heating etc. So I know what it feels like to be less well off. But I’m not sure that was classed as truly poor either.
All I’m saying is...not being able to afford “extras” and being poor are very, very different.

I have to add to that that I can’t ever imagine life with £100k a year income. That seems huge. Between myself and my husband we earned £24k between us last tax year. Though we don’t have a mortgage (house paid for)

My in laws complain about having no money yet frequently replace relatively new items of furniture and carpets, flooring, kitchens etc, go abroad whilst my parents have been so poor they've barely had enough food to eat.

It makes me a bit sick to see posts complaining 100k doesn’t go far when the lowest I’ve survived on is 13k a year with a baby. I think I have more of a right to complain.

And a person on less than 13k would think they have more right to complain than you.

You'll always find someone better or worse off than you....that doesn't mean the ones better off have no right to moan.

Many years ago...I was in a diet of homemade pancakes and cereal. I boiled a kettle to wash with because I couldn't afford a high electric bill... things were really tough....yet I knew many ppl had it worse...so I got on with it.

Your dad on 150k and no dependant children should be in a good financial position...but I'd say he has adjusted his lifestyle to or above his earnings if he's struggling on that.

I can't imagine earning that much and not giving my DD ad a single parent any money to help out with on a regular basis.

@silvercuckoo but all those things bitbored pointed out plus those you yourself later acknowledged eg the rent not being completely covered, benefits cap etc DO make a difference and mean that IF you were to reduce your hours massively and get benefits you would be worse off. In addition many benefits have been frozen since 2015 and so effectively reduced. If you really think it's an easy life on benefits crack on as soon as you're eligible to do so and make that change? Yea I doubt it!

"Those entitled to websites often wildly over estimate what people are entitled to." Also true, they're only a guideline. Plus they don't account for delays in receiving benefits - many of those being switched onto UC are waiting months for first payment - and the hardship and debt incurred as a result. Plus the "usual" cock ups whenever you have a "change in circumstances" which funnily enough take forever for govt to rectify if the claimant is disadvantaged but on the rare occasion when it's the reverse are very quickly dealt with.

"you are not entitled to help with childcare if you’re not actually using/paying for that childcare." Also true. A particular issue for shift and zero hours employees as you have to prove you're actually working the hours you're paying for childcare so there's no money for contingency childcare plans to cover potential shifts/overtime.

And I believe commuting time isn't covered under UC either.

Plus there's the absolute nonsense of having to pay for childcare FIRST then claim it back from the govt - I never had to do that thankfully but I have no idea how those that do manage it must be a nightmare. Because poor people don't (contrary to some batshit Tory MPs) have savings let alone stocks and shares and second homes to rent out!

Anyone on a good income I know never moans like that. They are well aware they are fortunate and enjoy life.

If I did know anyone who was like that I would choose not to spend much time with them I'm afraid. They must be completely self obsessed.

All this talk of its ' all relative' and obsession with 100k in London doesn't relate to this thread. I thought it was about being so unable to connect to anyone outside your own income bracket that you are crass and insensitive as to how they don't have your lifestyle.

Anyone who describes themselves as ' broke ' after paying huge private school fees that they choose to do, should really think about a paramedic on the top of their game earning 36k a year saving lives every day and slogging their guts out - it is unpalatable. You are not ' broke', you are fortunate and you have a choice not to do that.

A very interesting thread.

I saw an article on the bbc news app today comparing London to the rest of England and you could find out the average salary and other info for your area. Average salary in my area just over £18 000. This is IMO a very average E Midlands area. I was shocked as it was lower than I would have said.

@Graphista

This calculator gives the total benefit amount, including the childcare subsidy and capped rent. Still, on the surface it looks better off. I don't know how accurate the calculator is, from purely anecdotal experience - two ladies from my team dropped a good wage professional job (not 100K, but around 70K) in favour of a part-time local job + welfare, and (as far as I know) neither is looking to come back to the office rat race. One was an accountant turned teaching assistant, another - project manager turned a charity shop supervisor on a job share basis. Their stories are quite similar (and somewhat similar to mine) - early 20s studying, late 20s career-building, marry around 30, buy a property, then have two/three DCs in quick succession in mid-late 30s as the clock is ticking, then the marriage collapses, the house is sold, the mother moves to a rental accommodation with no realistic prospects of getting a mortgage solo, and has the full childcare bill to herself (what shocked me the most is that childcare is not a legit expense for the children / spousal maintenance purposes in the UK, and is perceived as mother's lifestyle choice).
I am totally going to try it out, and happy to report back on the progress . If I am wrong, I am wrong, and will simply return to the office in a year, no significant harm will be done.

7 posts in and we’ve got the ‘it depends if you’re in London’

YANBU OP. And it must be particularly galling as it’s your dad.

I had to laugh the other day when my neighbour said she was having her kitchen replaced, because, she said with horror, the current one 'hadn't been updated in 10 years'! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! How I guffawed to myself when I got back into my own house where the kitchen was installed in the 1970s.

I had a quote from Wickes for a new kitchen last year. It was eight thousand pounds. We need a new car - current one starting to break down here and there - so that eight grand will have to go on that. I also need a new pair of glasses. Those will have to wait a year or two. We could possibly afford about £200 to buy a tumble drier, but we certainly couldn't afford to run it. Our carpets are horrible. Really horrible - over 20 years old - but that is also further down the list than the car and the glasses.

Dh and I earn £30k between us - he's full-time, I work 25 hours a week. We have one child. 100k a year seems like a world away to me.

@silvercuckoo entitledto and turn2us - the main calculators people use and recommended by the govt THEMSELVES say it is ONLY a guideline and even the result page says

"Our estimate is based on the information you have entered and does not guarantee entitlement."

Or

"This is an estimation of your benefit entitlement and your actual results may differ slightly."

I've just performed calculations on both sites entering entirely accurate information - both gave different results, both overestimate what I should receive and i am absolutely certain I'm getting all I'm eligible for.

And as pps and I have said its not JUST a case of claiming what you're eligible for its all the hoops claimants have to jump through, constant uncertainty "brown envelope fear" is very real, I feel sick every time I hear my post delivered!

You say you're going to "try it" are you even aware you can't just "decide" to reduce your hours or quit your job and claim benefits?!

I believe (though it seems to keep changing) that you wouldn't even be eligible to start a claim for at least 3 months and could quite possibly be considered ineligible for 26 weeks.

There are people with terminal cancer being denied claims!

"If I am wrong, I am wrong, and will simply return to the office in a year, no significant harm will be done." So you have an earning partner or independent income you haven't as yet mentioned? If not what are you and your family going to live on while you're receiving nothing due to being sanctioned for having quit a good job for no reason?

You have absolutely no idea if you think it's that easy!!!!!

Silvercuckoo wants to believe what she wants to believe, pmsl at a Ta earning £16 per hour.

Her posts read as someone so uninformed it's laughable.

Median salary here (Cambs) is £23k according to @Bobbybobbins' chart. I'm shocked too.

@silvercuckoo I definitely agree that costs (particularly if you have to pay a nanny due to work demands and high rent in London) can eat up a lot of a six figure salary (as it used to for me) and leave you not much better than being on benefits. Also a job paying as well is likely to be stressful, add kids to the mix and it’s pretty tough as an existence.

I spent some time as a single parent on benefits. It was easier and much less stressful than when I worked in a high pressure job with a six figure salary and a nanny. That was my experience. Also financially, I wasn’t much worse off on benefits but had so much more time and less stress. Now I am lucky enough to have an in between where I don’t have to do such long hours but get paid less.

For those with all the outrage, maybe silver cuckoo doesn’t understand your situation but do you understand hers? Doesn’t seem to me like you are even trying.

Income is only one part of the story. Assets and expenses are crucial.

Income is only one part of the story. Assets and expenses are crucial.

As is job security, building up of a pension contributions, paying towards housing which is probably a mortgage and not rent...I could go on.

I am totally going to try it out, and happy to report back on the progress smile. If I am wrong, I am wrong, and will simply return to the office in a year, no significant harm will be done.

The fact that you think you can try it and then go back to working in an office demonstrates that you have no idea of what it is like to have no security. As others have said, you will be sanctioned for giving up your job and no doubt will receive less than you think especially if you are on universal credit. You might be made homeless because you can't pay your rent in the mean time. Except you won't because you will just go back to your job.

if you mix with people better off than you are, you will find it hard, and think you are not well off. It's all relative.

I spent some time as a single parent on benefits. It was easier and much less stressful than when I worked in a high pressure job with a six figure salary and a nanny.

I’m really glad the benefit system clearly worked so well for you. For many people it doesn’t and is a stressful and frightening experience.

It means being constantly worried that a mistake by the DWP will leave you penniless and unable to pay your rent or buy food for your family. Worried that you could lose your home. Worried about what would happen to your children if you did.

It means asking the health visitor to refer you to a food bank because there’s a delay between claiming and receiving your first payment and you have no food in the house. It means going without food yourself because you want to make the food parcel last longer as you don’t know how long it will be until you can buy food.

It means crying when you see adverts at Christmas time and you know that you can’t afford gifts or nice food for your family.

It means being terrified that the DWP will sanction you for some perceived offence like not attending an appointment because you’re in hospital, or because the letter informing you of the appointment arrived after the appointment itself.

It means feeling your heart sink when you’re asked for money you don’t have for a school trip. It means panicking when you notice your only decent pair of shoes are almost worn out because you’ve no money for new ones.

There is absolutely no comparison between the stresses of someone on a six figure salary and a single parent in receipt of benefits. It is utterly offensive to people who are struggling to get by on meagre state benefits to suggest there is.

Note: the above are not my personal experiences (which I’m very grateful for), but are examples of situations others I know have been in.