To think parental leave should be 50/50?

[MunaZaldrizoti]

A system of mandatory use it or lose it. No one "gifting" anything to anyone, just equal entitlement...

DS’s dad would have hated taking the leave

I think that’s really sad that a parent would hate to be the primary carer for their own child.

I don’t think ML should be split 50/50 Ona. Use it or loose it basis, but an additional 50% for the man which could be taken at some of the same time as the women, or after, would be good.

For me it should be about choice. All parents (male or female) should have the option to take parental leave. I they do in theory, but so few men take it at present unless they have an understanding employer - it needs to be more socially accepted than at present to share leave - in a lot of companies it's still career suicide for men to share leave (even more so than for women)

Depends on the family.

I have known women who've recovered quickly and wanted to back to work within 3 months but didn't want to use CC for such a young baby, so they're partners/spouses should then be able to "take over" as such.

But then I've also known women who've needed 9-12 months to recover from the birth so there's noway their partners could have had equal leave.

It should be up to individual women/families as to how/if they split the leave.

Yeah naaaaah OP. Maternity leave is there for the mother to physically and mentally recover. Even if you feel fine at a few weeks pp, you dont physically recover for around 9-12months, whether you feel well or not, your bones, everything are recovering. Not for the Dad or other parent to have 'bonding time'.

@yesimstillwatchingnetflix

"A few months later when baby is sleeping most of the night" - AHAHAHAHA ... Most of the night? A few months later? Snort.

It needs to be a choice not imposed. In our case, if 50:50 was imposed, I’d have had to go to work earlier as we would lose our house if my husband was on statutory pay for 6 months. Also I’m part time and he’s not so how would that work? It just doesn’t make financial sense for many families.

Where financially viable, I’ve seen shared parental leave work well but it isn’t for everyone and should never be imposed.

I think it's incredibly sad to see all these comments from people whose partners actively didn't want to spend time with their child and who apparently think it's fine. I can't imagine why you'd want to parent with someone like that, and I don't care how judgy people think that is.

I have no skin in the game thb, but I think the system as is is sad. It assumes women are primary care givers because uteruses. It sets the tone for women always being the primary care givers, the ones who remember the day to day minutiae, the ones who give up their careers and ambitions out of the home. That's sad to me, and I think evening things out will benefit everyone, and perhaps make women of my generation more keen to do the whole baby thing.

Also, for posters talking about "needing to heal", don't most episiotomies heal within 6 odd weeks?
www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/episiotomy/

Same for a C

www.nhs.uk/conditions/caesarean-section/recovery/

There are pros and cons but I haven't got much sympathy for those that claim it is impossible because their DH earns massive amounts more than they do. If he really is such a high earner they could save for him to take a couple of months off

It's not just about massive amounts. In our case DH earns more than me. We managed on his salary (about national average) plus mat pay. We couldn't have managed on my salary plus mat pay. No high earning here, no chance to save for time off work. Still impossible financially.

Also, for posters talking about "needing to heal", don't most episiotomies heal within 6 odd weeks?

You are going to get TOLD on this one I suspect. I am mostly on your side (I don't think it should be made compulsory but I did shared parental leave, think it's great and also think a lot of the reasons people give for not doing it are bullshit) but no, no most women aren't completely healed from childbirth after 6 weeks. I wasn't and I 'only' had a second degree tear.

Also, for posters talking about "needing to heal"

Christ almighty. I had a fairly easy ride with my c section...healed pretty well but believe me, it took longer than 6 weeks to feel anything like back to normal. I'm not sure I even feel 'normal' now, 18 months on.

For those saying it has to be a choice, I can totally get that. But it being a choice has led to 4% take up from fathers for SPL. Does anyone really think thats good enough?? I personally don't, and I think if you have to force men to take greater interest, to make more of an effort to be involved, then fine. Force them.

There are pros and cons but I haven't got much sympathy for those that claim it is impossible because their DH earns massive amounts more than they do. If he really is such a high earner they could save for him to take a couple of months off

But it isn’t just about the months off. It is about the likely career suicide that trying to take 2 months off from a senior position would bring.

Where I’ve seen shared parental leave work best is where the mother and father have similar earnings (or the mother is the higher earner), both have a good package from work and have jobs that are project or shift based.

But it isn’t just about the months off. It is about the likely career suicide that trying to take 2 months off from a senior position would bring.

Ah, the 'but men will face discrimination at work if they do this' argument. Like women do, you mean?

Does anyone really think thats good enough?? I personally don't, and I think if you have to force men to take greater interest, to make more of an effort to be involved, then fine. Force them.

The take up isn't low because men aren't interested ffs. It's because it's unworkable. Why does it matter so much to you if families do things in the way that works for them?

Fathers don’t give birth and they don’t breastfeed. Mother’s shouldn’t be forced to resort to pumping throughout the work day just so dads can split leave.

**Ah, the 'but men will face discrimination at work if they do this' argument. Like women do, you mean?

Im not denying women face the same problems but on a purely practical point of view, it’s easier for many employers to get cover for a year than it is for 2 months. Also if you’ve already buggered up one partner’s career then it makes no financial sense to do it to the other one as well. I’m not saying this is a good thing on a societal level but in my own circs it would be financially stupid for my husband to take shared parental leave.

Incidentally, as someone who has done SPL: almost all the hostility I encountered to the idea was from women, not men. It wasn't what I was expecting - I thought men were being self-serving when they said they'd like to do but it their wives 'wouldn't let them' at first, until those wives confirmed it - but it was what I, personally, found. A lot of women really do not want to share that role (and a lot of women don't want to be in the workplace, though people get v cross if you say that on MN)

But it isn’t just about the months off. It is about the likely career suicide that trying to take 2 months off from a senior position would bring.

This argument kind of makes the case for it being compulsory in my opinion. Heaven forbid a man's career should be effected by the birth of his children.

What about single mothers? Would they get both lots of parental leave under your proposal, OP, or would they just get half of what they do now?

People will always find ways to justify the status quo. When the man earns more it's 'simply not possible' to do SPL, when the woman earns more then the money is somehow found for her to be off. Cordelia Fine cites a study that looked at couples where one half were doctors and the other half academics. Whichever job the woman had - doctor or academic - nearly every couple insisted, both of them, that her job was much more flexible and so it Just Made Sense for her to do most child related stuff. Whatever the situation people will find ways for it to Just Make Sense to do the societal norm.

What about single mothers? Would they get both lots of parental leave under your proposal, OP, or would they just get half of what they do now

I think in Sweden if a parent has sole custody they get all the parental leave. If it is shared custody (which is what usually happens in Sweden) the parental leave is shared too.

I think that both men and women should have a generous amount of fully paid mat/pat leave in their own right, plus in addition the right to statutory pay. I think employers should offer a "parental" package, rather than a maternity package, so that enhanced pay is offered to any employee having a baby, regardless of sex.

I don't think that we should take from women to give to men.

Men would then, like women, have to consider whether the enhanced package an employer is offering suits their needs when they apply for/accept a job. This may well have the impact of drawing more men into traditionally female roles in the public sector where mat pay tends to be more generous. It will also level the playing field with regard to employers seeing childbearing age women as more of a "risk" than men.

Families would have to make their own decisions as to whether they can afford one parent/both parents/which parent off for whichever length of time suits them up to the maximum 12 months each. Different family situations will mean that different solutions will work for individual families.

In reality, I would think this would mean that men would be more likely to take the first 6/12 weeks off of work, if they were fully paid to do so. This would really help with supporting the mother in the first couple of months after birth, and help with bonding between dads and babies.

But it isn’t just about the months off. It is about the likely career suicide that trying to take 2 months off from a senior position would bring.

It's only career suicide because most men don't do it. As long as this persists there will always be inequality. As another poster said this statement gives more reason to make it compulsory rather the other way round.

Interestingly i can find lots of stats about male take up of leave but not female.

Im struggling to find how many women take a whole year, average lenth off, how many leave work entirely etc as it wouldnt make sense to share leave if you are are the permanent childcare solution and if you are heading back to work at 6 months anyway for financial reasons is much harder to share.

I think its the longer term decisions about childcare for the next 10-11 years that have more than of an impact anyway.