To get cross every time I see a woman say her husband doesn't do any night feeds because "he works"?

[TeenTitans]

I'm in a few mum groups online and I keep seeing this and it's driving me mad. Women who's husband's never do any night feeds because they work and women who think that's perfectly okay. Erm do you not think looking after the kids all day is work? My response is always "so do you!" when I see it. My partner has always helped with the nights because they're his kids as well and it's just as much his job as mine.

I'm not complaining about couples divvying up the work as they wish but the justification. YOU ALSO WORK.

just light hearted banter. I am a mother of an 18 month old , we both work full time, I do and have done all night shifts since LO was born

I'm a radical socialist too name which is why I find it quite alarming that don't understand the pressures and basic socialization that underpins comments like "I do it because my husband works".

Maybe that say that because they fear the reaction they'll get if they say "I want to do it." I bloody loved doing night feeds - just me and DC snuggled together, the rest of the world asleep. Those moments were so precious and irreplaceable. Yet I should've relinquished them because the sisterhood tells me its unsisterly to not force my husband to take over? I don't think so.

Why get cross. Their marriage. I breastfed so 100% didn't expect my husband to do that. And I wasn't at work the next day. There isn't a requirement for both parents to be completely knackered you know and frankly I preferred my husband to have had sufficient sleep that he got up early enough to bring me breakfast in bed!!

@TeenTitans

I'm a radical socialist too name which is why I find it quite alarming that don't understand the pressures and basic socialization that underpins comments like "I do it because my husband works"

I do understand it, however I also think in a western country where women have access to information and education, we have to assume a certain level of autonomy over their choices. It's not like one reaches a particular point of feminist enlightenment that one suddenly emerges blinking into the light and becomes a fully independent decision maker. Social conditioning is a part of us; whether we are responding to it or rebelling against it. It is infantilising to assume that because someone's decisions are not the ones you would come to with the same access to the same information they are making their decisions under duress or in a state of ignorance.

And even if you did, you said these people 'annoy' you; surely you should be concerned for them if you believe they are making harmful decisions for themselves without the freedom to choose differently due to social conditioning?

Either you accept that everyone makes their own decisions for their own reasons in their own circumstances (given a reasonable base level of freedom and access to knowledge), or you think that only decisions you approve or are legitimately made. Which doesn't strike me as particularly feminist, or particularly radical.

'The attitude that going out to work is of higher moral value than the domestic load is not ok.'

Which no one has said

What we have said is being a wohp when sleep deprived is more challenging then staying at home.

Well DH lacked breast so really no point in him doing the feeds. Also it is quicker and easier just to whack baby on breast then pop them back down to sleep DH didn’t wake up naturally to a baby. I would actually have lost more sleep with him having to get up and mess around with a bottle.
Also whilst I was on maternity leave I was not working and thus really my tiredness/ forgetfulness etc wasn’t going to impact on my career. Why on earth would I want DH to be going to work tired and making mistakes when I was sat around all day at home???? Really baby / toddle groups , housework etc are not the same as a stressful job it is hard work but it’s not the same. His career progression is financially in my favour also!
Sorry but I have 3 children and yes it is hard being a full time mum but honestly when I’m at work I have to be 100% on the ball it is literally life or death. That is why I didn’t work for a year post baby each time and why I offer DH career the same respect.
This is only ever even an issue with bottle feeding btw.

BookwormMe2

Yes, you have misunderstood me. I didn't say that women who stay at home neglect their children and I did not say that women, whose partners can't be arsed with child-rearing duties, are neglecting their children.

What I said is that (male) partners who refuse to pull their weight in (basic) child-rearing duties, such as feeding, are neglecting their own children and there is a boat-load of people excusing that sort of neglect that men perpetuate.

I bloody loved doing night feeds - just me and DC snuggled together, the rest of the world asleep. Those moments were so precious and irreplaceable. Yet I should've relinquished them because the sisterhood tells me its unsisterly to not force my husband to take over? I don't think so.

So just say because you want to. I 100% support that. Just don't say it's because his work is so precious and perfect that he can't ever have a disturbed nights sleep.

name I'm not saying that my decisions are the only ones made without socialization, or that all women who decide to do the night feeds are victims of the patriarchy, just that the general overarching trend that sees it as the norm is based in patriarchal standards. Which is different to individually saying every woman who does this is not feminist.

You have brilliantly articulated everything I want to say regarding OP's original and subsequent statements, Namestheyareachangin, especially the comment:

Either you accept that everyone makes their own decisions for their own reasons in their own circumstances (given a reasonable base level of freedom and access to knowledge), or you think that only decisions you approve or are legitimately made. Which doesn't strike me as particularly feminist, or particularly radical.

Absolutely spot on.

The OP has confirmed that’s what she’s driving at @BarbadosBrenda

And I do think it’s kinda being backed up by the inferences and language used some on here but I’ll let you search through the thread cos I can’t be arsed - again

OP, I never said I did the feeds because my husband worked the next day, I came on to defend those who have, who you claim are annoying. But if that was my reason for doing it, I'd still stand by it for all the reasons Namestheyareachangin said.

'Just don't say it's because his work is so precious and perfect that he can't ever have a disturbed nights sleep.'

'Precious and perfect' is that a chip on your shoulder op? Again, no one said that .

They said being at home allows for some flexibility when tired that working out of the home does not.

I do all night feeds because A: I like to, B: the babies would never take a bottle, and C: my husband has a job wherein, if he’s sleepy and his decision making and critical thinking skills deteriorate, even a little bit, people could die. I might fall asleep on the couch tomorrow when I’m trying to fold laundry, but I’ll survive.

Also do you lot literally never go out the house with the kids? Because I don't recognise this wearing pyjamas and watching telly all day description at all

Sure, but the point is as a SAHM you don’t have to. You can literally do what you want for the full day. Baby slept well - great out you go. Baby had a rough night, great, have a lazy day.

bookworm totally agree

Baby sleeping well still involves some night waking though. So you are still sleep deprived.

Baby sleeping well still involves some night waking though. So you are still sleep deprived

Why are you so keen for everyone to have the same experiences as you?

name I'm not saying that my decisions are the only ones made without socialization, or that all women who decide to do the night feeds are victims of the patriarchy, just that the general overarching trend that sees it as the norm is based in patriarchal standards. Which is different to individually saying every woman who does this is not feminist.

So in an ideal world what would you like to see? I assume in these discussions you see, "I do the night feeds as DH works" is an aside for context to a wider issue. A shorthand. Should people instead be saying "I do the night feeds because I am breastfeeding" (a bold thing to admit these days past the early weeks as any mention of bf is considered "shaming" of mums who don't, especially in relation to a context like night feeding where by mentioning the practical upshot you are "being a martyr")?

Or maybe: "I do the night feeds because DH works, in a job which requires a long commute/manual handling/life-threatening chemicals/whatever not a bog standard office job, and we had a discussion where we agreed I have it easier in the daytime so I'd do nights then he'll give me two lie-ins on the weekend" or "I do nights because DH works and my mum pops in most afternoons and takes DC out while I nap for a couple of hours" or whatever long-winded process by which they individually arrive at that point. Do you not think that would be a bit faffy?

Namestheyareachangin great post

Back in the 80's when I was a baby, my dad split the night feeding with my mum, until his boss found him asleep at his desk one afternoon. My dad had a very demanding job and we were living in a different country where he didn't get any paternity leave so he did the best he could but simply couldn't manage half the night feeds as well as the full, demanding job. His boss just shut the door and left him to sleep for that day, and after that my mum did all night feeds on work nights and he did them all at weekend nights.

My mum also had a demanding job, but she was on maternity leave so didn't have any of that pressure. Looking after a baby, where you have completely choice over how to spend your day depending on how tired you are is completely different to working at your job, where you don't get a choice and where being tired and making a mistake can end up killing someone.

Baby sleeping well still involves some night waking though. So you are still sleep deprived.

But that's your own experience. Other peoples experiences are different.

I suppose what I mean is yes, there are some assumptions made around gender division of labour based on patriarchal social norms (both to do with parenting and more generally).

My favourite is the 'mental load' one which everyone assumes I bear as the woman - when in fact I'm shit at it and it's DP who is always remembering to see when the weather's going to be good for drying washing, reminding me to buy my train tickets to visit my sister before they get too expensive, planning what we're going to eat when relatives are coming to visit etc. People even think I buy his mum's birthday card!! I don't even know when her birthday is. It's his mum.

I just don't think the way we deal with these assumptions though is getting frustrated with other women speaking their truth. Not too sure what we DO do about them apart from living our own best lives and being public about that; but certainly this approach doesn't seem very productive.

'Sure, but the point is as a SAHM you don’t have to. You can literally do what you want for the full day. Baby slept well - great out you go. Baby had a rough night, great, have a lazy day.'

This ^ with bells on!!

No need for snidey 'precious and perfect work' comments op.

I did all the night feeds as I bf and didn’t want to use bottles so it was a choice for me