To ask if you have a problem with your father walking you down the isle?

[trully]

I have just seen the thread about asking for hand in marriage and seeing how sexist it is etc etc I do agree and I understand where it came from. However, it's the same for your father "giving you away" and walking you down the isle. Does that bother everyone too?

My husband asked my dad and my dad walked me down the aisle.

We are 23 and 24. I guess it's a tradition but my husband really wanted my dads permission, I asked why and he said because he thinks thay asking is being respectful.

As a history graduate with a decent grasp of the English language, it is quite irritating to see the meaning of tradition perverted in this thread.

Tradition: a long-established custom or belief that has been passed on from one generation to another.

The CUSTOM of walking down the aisle is an act that had symbolic sexist implications. Strip away the implications and the action itself can be neutral/positive without them.

The BELIEF that marital rape didn't exist because a man had innate right to sex with his wife was sexist. You can't divide the implications from the action in this case, and the existence of the belief didn't make the rapes not rape (legal or otherwise).

IMO, traditional actions or customs are generally fine. Traditional beliefs or values are where things go to shit.

I'm out. This thread has got more ridiculous as it goes on. Drizzlehair's post has topped the lot.

I am off to a wedding in a few weeks and as I see the bride coming up the aisle on the arm of her Dad I can think of this thread and be really happy for her.

I didnt have an aisle. We went for a circle which rid us of all of that. No classes seating order. Everyone was involved equally. My dad wasnt bothered at all! I entered the circle myself!

Sparklingbrook why? Can you explain why what I've put is so different from the traditions you're so keen to defend? Logically I think it's pretty similar

What about my previous post a few above my ridiculous one... Any thoughts on that - the one where I talk about points on a spectrum?

This is a really interesting and long overdue debate. I'm not trying to pick on you specifically but I'm really keen to understand why what I've written is so wrong. To me it seems completely logical and makes sense, so please enlighten me why you disagree so much.

If your only answer is 'because that's the way it's always been' then fine, but I assume you'll see the flaw in this and why people are keen to change it.

The next time there is a post from the feminism boards asking why more posters don’t engage with the posts there I’ll direct them to this thread

“Oh no, you’re not feminist ENOUGH so don’t even bother” seems to be the attitude de jour

@thecatsthecats’ Post is the most genuinely sensible and rational one on this entire thread. Some of the “wrong kind of feminist” on the other hand ...

No one, as far as I can tell, has in any way said that people with different opinions are the "wrong kind of feminist", or "not feminist enough". That's a deliberate twisting of what people who have put their different opinions across are saying. Some people have said that they think it is a non-feminist decision to choose to be given away and/or walked down the aisle. They've given their reasons why they think that. If you don't agree then that's fine!

It is a tiresome trope of hating on the feminist boards because one poster (who may or may not even frequent those boards) has made a post that you disagree with.

I bloody hate the sexist chanangians thatnis fathers walking their daughters down the aisle and giving them away. I hate the fact that the man is allowed to greet the guests and wait at the front but the woman is expected to perform a grand entrance and make everyone gasp with the beauty of her glorious hair/dress/general appearance but there’s no expectation that the man will do anything other than have a wash and put a suit on.
It’s all bloody boring sexist bollocks and I do think less of women who play along with this, even women who I actually love dearly, I still think it reflects badly on them and send a terrible message to kids at weddings about what their roles/expectations should be as adults.

The next time there is a post from the feminism boards asking why more posters don’t engage with the posts there I’ll direct them to this thread

“Oh no, you’re not feminist ENOUGH so don’t even bother” seems to be the attitude de jour

People who are prepared to think and to question their own assumptions are always welcome on feminist boards in my experience. It's the ones who are outraged by the fact that someone might disagree with their decisions, or call them unfeminist or the women who appear to think that feminism should be some kind of softcore 'Yay for CHOICE!!!' arrangement in which women fall over themselves to agree with other women, purely because they are women who get outraged, and flounce, complaining about how the mean girls weren't nice to them. (Those are the ones who bob about afterwards saying 'Ooh, I'm not a feminist, me, I once went on a feminist board, and someone was MEAN to me!!!')

And their outrage appears to me, a lot of the time, to be largely because they aren't used to debate or argument, and they associate having their ideas challenged with anger and hostility. It does at times make me wonder what on earth they talk about in their day to day lives -- do they never have idea-based arguments with friends about current affairs or random issues thrown up by day to day life? Do they never have to defend a position or argue out a line of thought against someone who thinks differently?

I have no idea where to start with that tirade but I’ll give it a go.

Firstly it’s patently ludicrous to assert that any choice made by any woman is a feminist one just as it’s absurd to assume that one feminist will always make the same choices as every other feminist. The entire point of feminism is to liberate women, not to replace the oppression of the patriarchy with oppression of other women.

A lot of women who post on MN are degree educated and hold the kind of job in which they’re required to present and defend their opinions on a daily basis. They have friends and colleagues with whom they debate and exchange ideas, most of them are sufficiently mature not to expect everyone to agree with them on every issue. This thread has illustrated that perfectly. Nor are they dogmatic. All the patronising rudeness on this thread has come from extreme feminists intent on belittling others who don’t agree with them - I think “thick” was parried at one point.

At the end of the day we all make the decisions and choices that suit us and our lives. My feminism includes working and managing my own money independently, many people hold all their money jointly, it suits them and I’m not going to call them unfeminist because they don’t agree with me.

My feminism dates from the era when women didn’t get even the pretence of equal pay, no maternity leave, precious little childcare, women couldn’t get a mortgage, credit cards or loans without a male guarantor, abortion was illegal and female contraception was in its infancy and available only if you had a ring on your finger.

We’ve come a long way, baby, and we’re not there yet so forgive me if I can’t get exorcised about a harmless wedding custom when there’s so much more important stuff to worry about.

Great post Alsohuman.

My feminism dates from the era when women didn’t get even the pretence of equal pay, no maternity leave, precious little childcare, women couldn’t get a mortgage, credit cards or loans without a male guarantor, abortion was illegal and female contraception was in its infancy and available only if you had a ring on your finger.

We’ve come a long way, baby, and we’re not there yet so forgive me if I can’t get exorcised about a harmless wedding custom when there’s so much more important stuff to worry about.

Assuming you mean 'exercised', it's hardly an either/or situation. Feminists are not picketing white weddings while ignoring the pay gap or underfunding for rape crisis centres. Also, whataboutery -- seriously? Isn't that a bit old hat as a debate strategy? As is describing someone else's post as a 'tirade' because you disagree.

My feminism comes from exactly the same place as you say yours does. I was a volunteer who met Irish women coming to the UK for abortions off the ferry. I was the women's officer in my SU who got the first condom machine installed on campus back when the Virgin Megastore in Dublin was sued for selling condoms without a pharmacist present. I campaigned in the abortion referendum. I still think that the kinds of 'custom' under discussion on this thread are not 'harmless'.

My sister walked me down the aisle. Me and my Dad have an ok relationship but it didn't feel right, he hasn't been a major part of my life for a while so I asked my sister. She didn't give me away though, just walked me up the aisle!

Firstly it’s patently ludicrous to assert that any choice made by any woman is a feminist one just as it’s absurd to assume that one feminist will always make the same choices as every other feminist. The entire point of feminism is to liberate women, not to replace the oppression of the patriarchy with oppression of other women.

Yes, I agree. No one here is telling you that you can't make choices.

A lot of women who post on MN are degree educated and hold the kind of job in which they’re required to present and defend their opinions on a daily basis. They have friends and colleagues with whom they debate and exchange ideas, most of them are sufficiently mature not to expect everyone to agree with them on every issue. This thread has illustrated that perfectly. Nor are they dogmatic. All the patronising rudeness on this thread has come from extreme feminists intent on belittling others who don’t agree with them - I think thick was parried at one point.

The introduction of "thick" was by SoupDragon in response to Whackaguacamole who said that their own decision was an anti-feminist decision and that it's a shit tradition. That's not an extreme position to hold.

At the end of the day we all make the decisions and choices that suit us and our lives. My feminism includes working and managing my own money independently, many people hold all their money jointly, it suits them and I’m not going to call them unfeminist because they don’t agree with me.

Again, no one has said anyone is unfeminist or not the right kind of feminist or nor feminist enough. People have been talking about this tradition/belief and their own choices. One person's choice might well be unfeminist/anti-feminist. That's not the same as saying they are unfeminist!

I can’t get exorcised about a harmless wedding custom when there’s so much more important stuff to worry about

This is another endless trope. It is possible to worry about many things simultaneously and to different degrees. If this doesn't bother you at all and is very unimportant then post once and don't engage further, your choice.

I mean excorised - the sentence would make no sense with your spelling. And I’m not going to engage in willy waggling about feminism, I think men do that sort of nonsense much better.

I’m not going to engage in willy waggling about feminism - this would be much more believable if you hadn't instigated it.

🤣

Exactly. It’s not an either or situation where we must focus on wedding traditions which reinforce patriarchal stereotypes or focus on other areas of gender equality. We can do both.
But if you make a grand entrance at your wedding purely so that your physical appearance can be admired by your audience, and you ask your father to accompany you up the aisle whilst your mother sits passively to one side, and your father hands you over to your groom, then don’t kid yourself that young boys and girls at that wedding won’t be absorbing all of this and that it won’t have an impact on how they see the roles of men and women in family life.

Also, I was merely pointing out that I'm not someone who discovered feminism via #MeToo last week, and that I've been involved in some of the issues you designated as more important than customs surrounding weddings, and that caring about a range of issues is possible.

I mean excorised - the sentence would make no sense with your spelling.

Well, you've spelled it differently again there, but as 'exorcised' means to ritually banish demons/evil spirits etc., either way I'm still not seeing its sense in a sentence in which you say you can't get 'exorcised' about wedding customs. Is anyone coming at you with a crucifix and holy water?

Well, of course you can care about more than one thing at once but you prioritise, no? In order of magnitude wedding customs are fairly low for me.

I’m so sorry to have confused anyone who hasn’t seen that word used in that particular context before.

I would like my grandfather to walk me down the isle, because I know it would mean a lot to him. I'm not particularly bothered either way. I do know it's a sexist tradition though.

I mean excorised

I don't think that's a word, but if it is then it related to excoriation. Which still doesn't make sense.

Unless you mean "excoriated" which can either mean to damage and remove ones skin, or to criticise.

I’m so sorry to have confused anyone who hasn’t seen that word used in that particular context before.

Sigh. At the risk of being accused of idiomatic 'willy-waving':

'To get exercised about:
To alarm, worry, or anger; upset: an injustice that exercised the whole community.

Exercised - definition of exercised by The Free Dictionary
www.thefreedictionary.com/exercised

exercised about (something)
Upset or agitated because of something. 'We can't tell Mom we broke the vase—she'll get totally exercised about it! 'Before you get exercised about it, let me tell you exactly what happened.'

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/exercised+about

exorcise
verb [ T ]
US also exorcize uk /ˈek.sɔː.saɪz/ us /ˈek.sɔːr.saɪz/

to force an evil spirit to leave a person or place by using prayers or magic:
After the priest exorcised the spirit/house/child, apparently, the strange noises stopped.

to remove the bad effects of a frightening or upsetting event:
It will take a long time to exorcise the memory of the accident.

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/exorcise

End of derail.