How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

In the case of op’s question I would say ‘people of different ethnic origins’ but I do t habitually find the need to reference someone’s skin colour.

Obama is American. The US have a different perception on race relations to the UK due to having a different history. So mixed race people there are called black. Also what you call yourself is up to you not anyone else so as he calls himself black unless you are CF you do as well. He has actually explained when running for president why he called himself black not mixed race, and that is due to how he's treated in the US and who supported him.

Very good points - I chose him as an example because of his global prominence, but if he chooses to refer to himself as black and whooly embrace that side of his heritage, then that's entirely his prerogative.

Maybe, for some people, it comes from a point of being largely rejected by white people for not being 'white enough'. Having said that, racists come from all backgrounds and there are a lot of people with mixed heritage who preposterously find themselves rejected as 'not properly one of us' (as if it actually matters) by people of all racial backgrounds.

Because historically in the US you had the one drop policy. One drop of black blood meant you were black and not white, no matter how light skinned you were. Which is why people like Mariah Carey and Faith Evans are identified as black by American society although they are mixed race and fair.

Ah, thanks for explaining that, Rach182. So it sounds like as much a rejection by idiotic white communities as an embracing by the black community. It's very sad that it's like that, though.

I'm deeply saddened by the number of people on the thread saying that not mentioning race is any kind of acceptable solution. "I don't see colour" supports systemic racism in our society by allowing white to remain as the unspoken default. I think it's really really important for white people to engage with racism and educate themselves about it - and pushing through that discomfort about even mentioning race is part of that.

If you are interested and feel a bit ignorant and embarrassed about the whole topic, then I think the following might be good books to read:
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1408870584?tag=mumsnetforu03-21
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0008341001?tag=mumsnetforu03-21
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0141990562/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1783523956?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

“You are one of the posters that made a sensible conversation impossible on a previous thread on the topic”

Because I don’t buy the wide eyed “oh, it’s all so difficult and it changes ^all the time” bullshit?

White people shouldn’t refer to other people’s colour or races. It nearly always comes out wrong and offensive.

BaME refers to different people depending on where you are. It also (IMO) sounds as weird as POC.

Black/brown/white are fine with me.

“White people shouldn’t refer to other people’s colour or races. It nearly always comes out wrong and offensive.”
Only if you say wrong or offensive things!

White people shouldn’t refer to other people’s colour or races.
. What bollocks

So should "white" people be called pink people, ivory people, golden people? So more a sliding scale than two opposites black and white? Or would that be worse and insensitive to the cultural heritage(s)?

My kids went to a very culturally and ethnically diverse primary school and they/we used to describe children whose name we didn't know by saying "he/she has X colour skin" where X is a descriptive light brown/dark brown/white or "a similar colour skin as ". To me this is no different to describing hair colour.

To try to identify someone without using skin colour is a biy like playing guess who and not asking whether the person wears glasses.

I don't like the term people of colour. It's basically just a re-wording of "coloured people" which everyone thankfully stopped using decades ago.

I grew up in East London and everyone said brown without batting an eyelid, including the brown kids referring to themselves as brown.

Nowadays I usually say South Asian for people of Indian/Bangladeshi/Pakistani/etc. heritage.

www.intermix.org.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2834

How dare some white middle class do-gooder liberal dictate what she can and cannot call herself

We have a daughter, she is one quarter Black Nigerian, I am white. Our my daughter is blond hair and blue eyes with pale white skin, my daughter considers herself to be white English, though she knows she is mixed race, her mother also considers herself mixed race English. My daughter is enthusiastic learning about African culture, but no more than any of us are. For all intents and purposes my daughter is English and not dual heritage

^^ From reading further on in the above thread. I do wonder who decides when the terminology is to be changed and why? It seems to offend the very people it has been devised to describe. Perhaps they should get a say in what they get to call themselves instead of being told?

I use East Asian when I don't want to have to list Chinese/Japanese/Korean etc, but want to avoid confusion with Asian in the UK usually referring to Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi etc.

I would have no idea what you meant if you said “South Asian”.

It all depends on the situation/who’s talking/what about/the relationship etc.

My in-laws refer to my child as “coloured” when describing them to people from their own country.

I wouldn’t use that term as it’s not ok in British society, even if I was talking to a person from that country (I’d say mixed or mixed white/black).

BME or BAME is what I would use if talking about a large group in a formal setting.

If describing to the police 2 men who attacked me I would say “a white man and a black or mixed looking man. Or South/East Asian/sounded like they were from Poland/Newcastle etc. I’m not going to say a white man and a ‘person of colour’ as that wouldn’t be descriptive enough.

@PlatypusLeague - if you did then a lot of South Asian, Middle Eastern, Mixed Race and East Asian people would also be classed as white. When we know that a pink skinned, blue eyed Kashmiri is a different race to a pink skinned blue eyes Scandinavian that would just minimize race. Also you proved my point about white people not having a clue about race and therefore should keep quiet about it.

I would have no idea what you meant if you said “South Asian”.

Well, now you would!

It means people from countries in South Asia!

It's fairly commonly used in London. I've heard it plenty. Often as mentioned by a PP above to distinguish from East Asian (Chinese, Viatnamese, Japanese, etc.)

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis - Neither would I and I’m Indian. South Asia is really diverse in terms of race. Perhaps the most diverse region in Asia. Even saying ‘brown people’ isn’t accurate because most South Asians aren’t brown.

I think 'cultural' origins is different to 'ethnic' origins.

For example, I'm Scottish born and bred in Scotland and descended from a long line of Scots Celtic race going right back to the Norse Viking invasion. My cultural origins (bagpipes, tartan, the kilt, Robbie Burns, Andy Stewart, ceilidh, my clan/ clan history) and ethnic origins (my clan / ancient clan wars / clan history / clan castles) are Scottish.

I live in England and sound English, as do my children. That doesn't make me English, though it does make my children half English and nobody would guess they're Scottish because unlike me they don't have freckles and red hair. So my DC are ethnic mixed race Celtic / Anglo Saxon, culturally English.

If I was brown or black born and brought up in Glasgow I might be culturally mainly Scottish but with ethnic origins of Africa, Pakistan or India or some other sunny country where nature gave skin deeper levels of sun protection.

All the pc and the anxiety it brings just to talk about our fellow human beings in any meaningful way is a tragedy really. It's just like all the different eye and hair colours, wonderfully individual and to be celebrated, not stammered uncertainly in fear.

@intensiveeveline part of the issue with terminology is that in the UK we are influenced by other countries especially the US even though we have a different history.

The history is actually a bugbear of mine when it comes to Black History Month as there is plenty of black history in the UK and there are even living people that can be asked, but loads of schools choose to focus on US black history.

Perhaps they should get a say in what they get to call themselves instead of being told?
That is the entire point about identity. No one including should tell you what your identity is as they don't know exactly where your parents and forefathers are from and what you and they have gone through. Also your identity frequently changes depending on who you are speaking to and where you are. (Sorry listening to the radio where they are talking about identity. )

What everyday conversations with strangers are you having where it's necessary to point out someone's ethnicity? So far this year I have not needed to describe someone based on their ethnicity.
If you are having a conversation with family or friends then you will know that person's preferred term.

I'm of Indian origin, and call myself brown, although I don't like calling white people white but you have just called yourself white? Its so confusing.

I generally just avoid asking or referring to someone's skin colour as it doesn't really matter. I often refer to the actual colour, so ' I'm a dark olive so I tan easily' or 'that colour really suits your fair complexion'. If I have to ask, I usually say 'where does your complexion originate from?' 'Or what is your ancestry/heritage?'

Whiteness is determined by society though - I mean, what "counts" as white has changed in the UK over the last 100 years. In 1919, Italians moving to South Wales were definitely not seen as "white" - but nowadays it would sound really weird to describe a Brit with an Italian parent as non-white.

The politics is part of it, which is why it is important for us to talk about this stuff. If we just munge it all into "la la la everybody's part of the human race kumbaya" then it becomes impossible to ask questions like "why are half our students BME but every single teacher is white, and what does that tell our kids about what they can aspire to?"

So should "white" people be called pink people, ivory people, golden people? So more a sliding scale than two opposites black and white? Or would that be worse and insensitive to the cultural heritage(s)?

I wouldn't object in principle as I have much paler skin than your average Italian, but it could indeed start to get silly if we end up with a full Dulux chart for skin colours.

I just don't understand why we have to select two binary 'opposites' and force people to choose one or the other; or worse, assuming that white is the default and that everybody who isn't 10th-generation white is categorised with everybody else as 'other'.

The idea of BaME doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, either. Firstly, it implies that it's sectioning off everybody who isn't default white and then sectioning off the remaining people who aren't default black and 'othering' the people of Asian, mixed race and various diverse heritages. Secondly, it means that, in a huge proportion of the world, I too, with my pale skin, would be classified as BaME.