How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

“Omit" should be the default in most situations. How many times does anyone need to be described by skin colour or ethnicity?”
This. There is so much discussion around this topic and it’s usually just an excuse for people to go on about political correctness gone mad/can’t say anything these days. There must be particular circumstances where you might have to use specific racial descriptors outside professional contexts but I can’t immediately think of any!

I'm half Assyrian heritage wise (from Turkey and Iran) and I'm paler than my DH who is nearly pure English with a bit of Scottish mixed in. Our children have blond/brown hair and blue/green eyes.

I would prefer to be called Middle Eastern if I'm going to be labelled something discounting my Caucasian side.

I've been told (by white people) that Oriental is offensive because "it's a carpet not a person".

As a white person speaking, white people do NOT get to say what non-white people are or are not allowed to find offensive when they are being identified/described.

Without wanting to derail the thread at all, this has echoes of the term 'cis' when used to refer to a person who fully identifies as their biological sex would suggest. Some people who are not 'cis' will tell those of us who are what they would call 'cis' that it's just a neutral term and that we are to accept it without any debate, however much we may object to it or find it offensive.

In the OP's example, she's basically asking what's an acceptable term for "non-white" so all the examples using specific counties/regions don't really work.

As in

What have been the experiences of [non-white people] in UK airports?

If writing it, personally I'd probably go for BAME but It's a mouthful to say!

Perhaps there isn't really an acceptable way to lump in all non-white people, given It's such a loaded way to group people?

Maybe the answer is to be more specific in your meaning? So for the OP's example it could be:

What have been the experiences of people at risk of being discriminated against for their skin tone/ ethnicity, in UK airports?

(If this is what the OP actually means).

Yes what @bertrand said and if you work in a professional context you will KNOW or should find out fairly easily what terms to use .

@ScreamScreamIceCream the explanation I heard was that 'coloured' was offensive because it implies that someone has been coloured in (sounds ridiculous written down! But it was on radio 4, not some random person in the street), which is why I couldn't understand how POC was any better.

Your explanation does make more sense. But as I have already demonstrated, I am so confused by it all that I think I should avoid using either term!

As a number of pp have said, BME/BAME is entirely appropriate, commonly recognised, and very neutral.

POC is more of a US term. I really liked the origin as described here - it is intended to show solidarity in the face of systemic racism. But in a UK context nowadays I tend to use BME.
thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/03/26/loreta-ross-on-the-phrase-women-of-color/

"while “colored people” was a phrase used to delegitimate black- and brown-skinned people, “people of color” was coined by activists hoping to bring all non-white people together into a coalition against racism."

OK.
White.
BAME.

Thread ends.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Obama is American. The US have a different perception on race relations to the UK due to having a different history. So mixed race people there are called black. Also what you call yourself is up to you not anyone else so as he calls himself black unless you are CF you do as well. He has actually explained when running for president why he called himself black not mixed race, and that is due to how he's treated in the US and who supported him.

In regards to why you call black people British but not Asian people that's due to the circle you mix in. However I remember in the 80s and 90s black sportsmen and women pointed out repeatedly the media would call the "British" when they won but referred to them by their parents' country of birth when they lost. The fact that their parents would have likely come to the UK on British passports was lost on the media and many of the public.

PlainSpeaking I've just gone back tolook, I don't remember what you said but I posted under so I must have read it! Maybe @MNHQ could help?

I think we need to know what it was, so we can avoid repeating it!

@howmanyleftfeet the OP in that context would be guided by the data available to her when writing the report e.g Office National Statistics data.

As a white person speaking, white people do NOT get to say what non-white people are or are not allowed to find offensive when they are being identified/described. Is anyone trying to do that? I thought al of us white / not coloured posters were trying hard to work out was is acceptable. Not insist we know better!

Not at all like the cis argument, as we have all said we will very happily use whatever words are acceptable!

And can you not see the humour / hypocrisy that you state all of that prefaced by "As a white person"

“I thought al of us white / not coloured posters were trying hard to work out was is acceptable.”
Why are you finding it so difficult?

I think it is ok to say black (if they are) over here (UK) rather than the 'person of colour' that Americans use. For some reason I never say brown. I never say half-caste now as that seems to be offensive, I now use mixed raced. I often have to describe patients to people and find it best to say Indian looking rather than asian because then they may think I mean Chinese etc etc.

I remember growing up (60s) it was perfectly fine to say "coloured" but can see how that would offend (especially when you think of South Africa). One thing I noticed is that whenever anyone spoke of someone being 'coloured' it was always done in a hushed voice eg " that (whispers) coloured man over there. Ditto half -caste.

Black friends say they are black but interestingly, I have never thought to ask my mixed race friend what she feels she is.

I don't want to offend if they look Asian but have lived in Glasgow they're whole life
Is it offensive? I’ve usually found that people take pride in their heritage. I’ve never come across a British person of Asian heritage who was offended by being called Asian. I myself am a third generation immigrant (foreign born grandparents). I still feel strongly connected to my family’s country of origin and proud that my name and looks immediately identify my heritage.

I also don't understand why somebody with mixed/blended non-white/white parentage is by default referred to as black

Because "black" doesn't mean black in this context, it means non-white, where "white" means someone with no sign of non-European ancestry. (Non-white would be an accurate word to use, but is not PC, so black is actually a euphemism.)

(I wonder why only Europeans count as white, when some Chinese people are paler than many Europeans.)

My kids dad is black and my kids are mixed race I don't see no issue with describing them like that

brizzlemint That’s a very good point.

Thank you. One which PPs seem to have ignored.

What does dual heritage mean to you (collectively) when you hear that somebody is dual heritage?

I struggle too with this as I so do not want to cause unintentional offence to anyone....In my daughters class there is a huge range of different nationalities and ethnic heritage ..she will tell me if we are talking about something that happened in school ..she will say something like no not that Elizabeth mummy I mean Elizabeth with the brown face and green eyes...I dont think this is ideal too but she spells it out for me cos she doesnt see colour she sees her friends and I Like that.But I have struggled to try to get it right on lots of occassions ..thankfully the people who's heritage I may have mixed up are usually more than ok to correct me and not take offence as they know non was intended. I fear I am rather ignorant not as in rude but ignorant of knowledge on this matter...I am reading with interest hoping to learn too.

Why are you finding it so difficult? Not going there with you again Bertrand I don't have enough nails for that jelly!

You are one of the posters that made a sensible conversation impossible on a previous thread on the topic. You are intransigent and keep on with the "Why do you find it so difficult" no matter how much information and personal experience is imparted.

You don't help!

My Daughters Mother is doing a Health and social care course and has been told by her tutor that she cannot call herself mixed race anymore she has to call herself dual heritage !!!

www.intermix.org.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2834

From the above site.

I understood the correct terminology (at this point in time, at least) is "dual heritage".

I often have to describe patients to people and find it best to say Indian looking rather than asian

I hate saying Asian to describe British Asians as the term should also cover Chinese, Japanese and Koreans, who look nothing like them.

I would like to say "Indian" to describe the ethnicity, but I'm not sure how people of Pakistani origin would feel about that...

I have relatives in Australia who are Islanders and they refer to themselves as "brown people". One of them is a young woman in her early 20s, so I guess this is up-to-date information.

I also don't understand why somebody with mixed/blended non-white/white parentage is by default referred to as black. Obama was always referred to as the first black president when one of his parents was black and one was white. Therefore, he was clearly the first non-white president, but why was his black heritage given automatic supremacy over his white heritage? Is it just because the genes for black skin are dominant over those for white skin - or is it seen as positive to emphasise and 'claim' the non-white element as a reaction to historic/current white privilege?
@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Because historically in the US you had the one drop policy. One drop of black blood meant you were black and not white, no matter how light skinned you were. Which is why people like Mariah Carey and Faith Evans are identified as black by American society although they are mixed race and fair.

From a current perspective, though history has a major part to play in identity politics, a mixed race person in the US like Obama would still have grown up with the same racism and racial experiences as other black people . The white side would make no difference in how he's perceived by strangers or the rate at which he's racially profiled by police. Therefore many mixed race people in the States feel more affinity with black people compared with white people who will never experience the same racial discrimination and treatment. Therefore they personally choose to identify as black.