How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

@LivroNaMesa I remember watching a documentary over ten years ago, about diversity in Brazil. I remember a segment where different groups of people held up cards with words to describe the shade of brown they were. I remember finding it interesting as the show presented Brazil as a country with a high percentage of mixed people, which up until then I wasn’t aware. I think it was part of a BBC ‘mixed-race’ Britain series.

But I've seen a poster say that people need to differentiate between a person from India and a person from Pakistan because to confuse them is insulting. How could we know by looking at them?

Isn't this the essence of the thread - people are afraid of being calked racist if they inadvertently use the wrong word and yet white people are lumped together, irrespective of ethnicity, because you can't tell their ethnicity by looking at them?

"White" as a catch-all term - of course it is useful. Because it's a malleable term denoting social status: at the beginning of the 20th century Southern European wasn't counted as fully white - there were offensive terms to describe Spanish/Italian people that are odd and meaningless this century because Southern European is now White in privilege terms.

If you are white and feel discomfort or offense at that description - then this is pretty normal, it is part of keeping white as an unspoken "default", in the same way that male is default. Bringing children up to not speak of race may seem on the surface to be harmless but it actually prevents them from feeling comfortable about questioning stuff like "why are all the kids in books white like me and none Asian or Black like my friends?" www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jul/17/only-1-of-uk-childrens-books-feature-main-characters-of-colour

If you are interested and feel a bit ignorant and embarrassed about the whole topic, then I think the following might be good books to read:
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1408870584?tag=mumsnetforu03-21
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0008341001?tag=mumsnetforu03-21
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0141990562?tag=mumsnetforu03-21
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1783523956?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

But, for the OP's example of “What have been the experiences of _ in UK airports?”

I know that different "white" people have different experiences at airports, because I've seen it. So, I guess it's not useful here. I have witnessed coming off a flight from Eastern Europe to the UK and seeing my white Scottish husband being treated kindly and the airport staff being very rude to white Eastern European people on the same flight.

But I've seen a poster say that people need to differentiate between a person from India and a person from Pakistan because to confuse them is insulting. How could we know by looking at them?
So use Asian?

Little it's fine not to know, it's not fine to guess or assume eg: dark skin = Carribean or pale skin = English.

I'm pretty shocked at the number of people here who claim not to be aware that there's a difference between what people call themselves and what it's acceptable for someone else to call them!!!

I refer to myself as a miserable cow sometimes but I'd be pretty upset if someone else did!!! As a PP said, it's like the difference between non-relatives slagging off your mum and you doing it!

drspouse

But what is meant by "Asian"?

And I'm thinking more along the lines of downthestrada. There are differences amongst "white" people and not all white people are treated equally.

hopefulhalf

I think this is what I'm pondering. We appear to have the term " white" which presumably describes skin colour rather than ethnicity? Black is again skin colour not ethnicity. But then Asian - which is what? Is that ethnicity? But then does Asian mean from Asia? Which means what exactly? Someone from India looks entirely different to someone from China.

Asian is an ethnicity not a national origin.
Is that really hard?

If you want to distinguish you can say South or East Asian.

White is also an ethnicity. Not a national origin.

I generally avoid using any description of someone's colour or ethnicity if possible. I really dislike 'person of colour' but that's not something for me to chose! I'd use it if I thought it wouldn't offend someone.

Basically someone will be offended whatever you say so I mostly keep
my mouth shut. TBH it rarely comes up in my day to day life. If pushed and I didn't know the country I'd say a black, Asian, mixed race or Spanish looking guy. (My kids fall into one of those groups)

There was a big survey of what people who have Asperger/ASD like to be called and basically it showed that there was no right way. For example some liked to be called Aspie while other found it offensive. I'd love to see a massive survey on what people with various ethnic backgrounds like to be called and to be told what to say. I don't want to offend anyone and I'm happy to use whatever term people want me to use but I just don't know what it is.

I used to live in South Africa and it seemed more straightforward, blacks were blacks, whites were whites and coloureds were coloured. (Coloured is a recognised ethnic group in SA)

I'm not sure the people that get massively offended are representative of what others feel. I just don't know.

Not having grown up in the UK, I find 'asian' used for Indian/Pakistani really REALLY annoying. Everywhere else in the world, literally EVERYWHERE, uses 'asian' to refer to east, north and south East Asians. ie: Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Vietnamese etc. And they call Indian and Pakistani 'Indian and Pakistani'. Why the UK is so different is just confusing for anyone who lives in anyway globally.

The UK is different because most Asian people in Britain a) have a South Asian origin and b) don't mind being called Asian.
Use South Asian if it offends you.

And South Asian also includes Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan and others.

Asian is an ethnicity not a national origin.
Is that really hard?

Is it, using the definition below provided by another poster how does Asian fit as ethnicity? That means that cultural and sociological factors are the same across every country in Asia? Same as "white" being an ethnicity surely? What are the cultural and sociological factors that white people share?

What I knew as race - really means ethnicity (cultural, sociological factors) and ancestry (geographical origin, genotypic, phenotypic characteristics).

Then as toucantoo says, asian means different things in different places.

It seems that there are so many interpretations as to the correct terms to use that it makes no sense anymore.

drspouse "Why is it flawed? People's physical characteristics are a good way to tell them apart"

so we're back to the foundation shades. My sister and I have the same parents. in most average foundation shades, I'd be light - not the lightest one on the spectrum, but light - and she'd be the darkest.

quite how anyone can link that to what country our ancestors came from, I don't know.

posters saying they live in London and can identify lots of ethnicities - I'm a born and raised Londoner and I can't. It doesn't worry me because I just see people as people. Okay - that's a lie - men and women. That's where my differentiation stops!

As for idiots shouting racist abuse they usually just mean "other”.”

You know that isn’t true, you know that they are targeting Black people and/or black/mix.

I've had people hurl abuse at me all in one go (and not a single occurrence, many times) - P word, N word etc. So, they're just saying "other" not like me and trying to be nasty. It actually doesn't actually describe the person with any accuracy.

There will never be a right or wrong really.

I’m British, but my ethnicity is Pakistani, I’m quite pale and tall for a Pakistani, so people often think I’m from the Med or mixed race. However come August when it’s summer and I’ve got a decent tan my ethnicity does become much more obvious. Although I did get called Gaysian a few weeks ago, so maybe I look more Asian this year?!

My son is mixed race, his BM is Pakistani and his BD is white British, looking at him you wouldn’t think he had a white parent, he is very dark skinned.

If I’m referinf to race in general I tend to use BAME as it covers everyone who isn’t the majority in that particular area. When people ask me where I’m from I say London, if it is followed up by “where are you really from?” I say Nottinghamshire, as that is where I’m from.

I describe my skin colour as brown because it is brown, but I wouldn’t call myself a brown person, just a person as I am more than just a skin colour. But I don’t mind if other people call me brown, it would certainly be one of the nicer things I have been called. Europeans would generally call Pakistani’s Asian or caucasian, both are factually correct.

So, they're just saying "other" not like me and trying to be nasty. It actually doesn't actually describe the person with any accuracy

Of course it does. They at the very least mean light brown, usually they mean brown person with Subsaharan/Caribbean features.

I’m considered “other” by racists but people would be pretty fucking confused if they heard N directed at me though.

Simon my DD is like that (also adopted), even her BM who is white was reportedly taken aback at her colouring.
She is not Asian but that's most White people's guess, I'll need to teach her how to respond

Thinking about it, in my circle of friends, we will use the terms 'yellow' and 'brown' if it relates to us an individual. I suppose it's a bit like how black people use the n word but no one else does - it's about reclaiming a word. It's OK for you to use it, but no one else. So if you're a Caucasian person, steer clear of colours. Especially 'coloured people' and 'persons of colour' - those are just awful terms.

Personally, I hate the term Asian because people in this country use it interchangeably for Indian (what about the Chinese people, eh?) and I don't have a lot of love for the term BAME because people in this country use it interchangeably for black (what about the other ethnic minorities?) so the terms as inoffensive as they are have gained offensiveness for me due to how they've been repeatedly misused.

I also hate the term 'dual heritage' - that implies on an upbringing to two cultures based on the way you look. Your upbringing may be based on only one of those cultures or a different culture altogether. Don't make assumptions.

Mixed race is fine - it's factual. It doesn't imply and doesn't judge.

'Half-caste' or 'mixed caste' is just deliberately offensive. No.

In a slightly more pop culture reference, 'mudblood' is OK if used by someone who is mixed race to describe themselves, but not if used by other people. I refer back to my comments on 'brown', 'yellow' and the n word. You can use any term to describe yourself, you just can't impose it on other people.

Ultimately though, as someone who isn't white, what it really comes down to is meaning. Some terms are racist, some aren't - but I can hear in your voice and see in your body language if you're trying to upset me, if you think I'm worth less than you, or if you're using a powerful word without intending to wield it to hurt me. Common sense always prevails. If you don't mean to cause me offence, I won't take offence, regardless of the words you are using around me and to describe me.

Of course it does. They at the very least mean light brown, usually they mean brown person with Subsaharan/Caribbean features.

But using the P work or N word, can mean light brown, olive, dark brown - a whole range of skin colours that’s not typically seen as “white”. Where’s the accuracy in that? I have been called both these names throughout my life and I don’t have sub Saharan or Caribbean features.